Off road/rough road handling

[Pierak706]

We have not used my new TM yet (2720SL).
I have been reading the forum, and from some of the posts, it seems that the TM has problems on rough roads. The problems I have read about are:
1. Stuff working itself loose (tables, ovens, etc.)
2. Uncomfortable ride in the TV
3. Dust all over

I'm not really concerned with #3, I'm willing to clean the dust off.
But I would like to avoid #1 and 2.
We went on a 4 month trip to Alaska (from Georgia) with an Aliner in 2008, on some pretty rough roads, and we had a couple of things getting loose, but no problem with the TV ride. We would like to repeat the experience at some point in the future, so rough road handling is going to be important.
I would love to hear what strategies you have used to improve these problems; also, since next year we will probably buy a new TV, what would be the best choice?
I feel I'm taking advantage of everybody's expertise right now, I promise I will try to contribute something useful as soon as we actually go camping in the TM!:)

[Wavery]

We have not used my new TM yet (2720SL).
I have been reading the forum, and from some of the posts, it seems that the TM has problems on rough roads. The problems I have read about are:
1. Stuff working itself loose (tables, ovens, etc.)
2. Uncomfortable ride in the TV
3. Dust all over

I'm not really concerned with #3, I'm willing to clean the dust off.
But I would like to avoid #1 and 2.
We went on a 4 month trip to Alaska (from Georgia) with an Aliner in 2008, on some pretty rough roads, and we had a couple of things getting loose, but no problem with the TV ride. We would like to repeat the experience at some point in the future, so rough road handling is going to be important.
I would love to hear what strategies you have used to improve these problems; also, since next year we will probably buy a new TV, what would be the best choice?
I feel I'm taking advantage of everybody's expertise right now, I promise I will try to contribute something useful as soon as we actually go camping in the TM!:)

I haven't towed the TM on rough roads yet but I do intend to (Alaska is planned). However, I have towed TTs on rough roads and it takes a lot of preparation or stuff is all over the place. I think that stove tops and unsecured tables are an issue on any trailer.

I think if I were going to tow on rough roads, I might consider using a strap around the center of the trailer (the aft part of the front roof) and maybe even both ends. This would take a lot of stress off of the latches and may even reduce dust intrusion.

One thing is for sure, I would upgrade to larger tires. Rough roads = higher stress on the tires.

As for a TV.......there are so many things to consider. We currently use a 1/2 ton, full size pick-up but it is a dedicated vehicle for the TM. We don't use it around town (unless I have to go pick up something big). I like the long wheel base and I think it would do well on rough roads. I'm not consumed about the MPG of the vehicle. Sometimes, some can be penny wise and pound foolish with the fuel economy concerns. However, if the vehicle were my main driver, I may take a more conservative approach myself. That's really a tough one..

TV consideration is such a personal choice thing. It seems that most prefer an SUV and I can see the reasoning for some. I just like having the passenger compartment separated from the cargo area. That's just a personal thing though. The fact is, the full size SUVs are just a pick-up truck with a shell and no division between the front and back. I can see where, for some, that's a bonus.

[brulaz]

I suspect that how you have your WDH set up could affect rough road handling. I know a properly set up WDH helps on paved roads by taking excessive weight off the TV's rear springs and putting more on the front axle (and the trailer). It might reduce bouncing on rough roads as well.

[Scott O]

I don't remember much discussion regarding using an Elkmont off-road as it is a different beast from the TM. TM's are prone to dust as they can't be closed up as can the Elkmont. But construction issues are the same with both. There is some sacrifice in construction methods due to the need to keep the trailer light. To me, that means quite a bit less durability. There have been reports on this forum or TMs getting pretty well beaten up by going off road. Others have been successful. A search would probably lead you to those threads. I won't take mine off road, but I am pretty cautious with it. I would suppose that off-road would probably not be too much of a problem if the road was good and caution was exercised. Keep us posted!

[Pierak706]

Harveyrv, thanks for your suggestion about the strap. I think that would be very useful. We actually live on a rather rough dirt mountain road. Luckily, it is short.
Do you mean larger tires on the TM? We have 15 inch tires (came with it).
Also, you also mention the wheelbase. Excuse my ignorance, can you explain how it affects handling? Right now, with the Sprinter, I do not think the wheelbase is an issue, but we certainly want to look at everything when we buy our next TV.
I have read that the Alaskan Highway is much improved from the past, still, you do not need to go off road to get some pretty rough patches...more like a constellation of potholes and frost heaves. Also, there are quite a few beautiful places that can only be reached on unpaved roads. But it was worth every minute of it! I hope you will go soon, it is the trip of a lifetime.
Brulaz, we do not have a WDH. Does it make a lot of difference? I have read conflicting reports about it, here and in other forums. Some say it adds unnecessary weight, which for us is a concern at this point. Could you give more of your take on it?
It will be probably a year before we go to any off road destinations, but I will let you know then how it goes.

[PopBeavers]

Harveyrv, thanks for your suggestion about the strap. I think that would be very useful. We actually live on a rather rough dirt mountain road. Luckily, it is short.
Do you mean larger tires on the TM? We have 15 inch tires (came with it).
Also, you also mention the wheelbase. Excuse my ignorance, can you explain how it affects handling? Right now, with the Sprinter, I do not think the wheelbase is an issue, but we certainly want to look at everything when we buy our next TV.
I have read that the Alaskan Highway is much improved from the past, still, you do not need to go off road to get some pretty rough patches...more like a constellation of potholes and frost heaves. Also, there are quite a few beautiful places that can only be reached on unpaved roads. But it was worth every minute of it! I hope you will go soon, it is the trip of a lifetime.
Brulaz, we do not have a WDH. Does it make a lot of difference? I have read conflicting reports about it, here and in other forums. Some say it adds unnecessary weight, which for us is a concern at this point. Could you give more of your take on it?

It will be probably a year before we go to any off road destinations, but I will let you know then how it goes.

I started out towing with a Chevy 1500HD 6.5 foot bed. I now tow with a GMC 2500HD with an 8 foot bed.

I can notice the difference when towing. Primarily it porpoises less.

Regarding off road, I just posted to another thread on that topic. I will not repeat it here and I am too lazy to provide a link to it. It should not be hard to find.

I as replying to a question and I believe that you where the person asking the question.

I do not use a WD hitch.

[brulaz]

About the WDH ... it depends! And as for your combo of Sprinter + ?, I have no idea whether a WDH is necessary. With our combo of Tacoma and Elkmont it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise the 620# tongue weight seriously overloads the rear axle, and lifts the front making the steering very squirrely. With the WDH adjusted so that the front doesn't lift, the combo has a very stable, solid, planted feel to it. And the axle weight ratings are not exceeded.

I 've driven on some pretty horrible paved highways riddled with potholes, and the WDH seems to reduce the bouncing. On the other hand, many northern and rural roads are well-maintained and high speed even though they are gravel. Flying rocks can be more of a problem than ruts and potholes.

Friends who've driven to the Yukon and NWT say pretty much to plan on a new windshield and a chipped grill. This is from trucks flying by in the opposite direction. The front face of an upright Elkmont is more exposed than the regular ones so will have more trouble there. Our friend's solution was just to pull off the road or as far over as possible whenever a truck appeared coming at them.

The other problem of course are the rocks thrown up by your own vehicle and what it does to the underside or front of your trailer. I've sand-blasted all the paint off the frame of our utility trailer traveling at highway speeds across the prairie on a straight gravel road. I wonder what that would have done to any plumbing hanging below decks?

As Scott says, there have been threads about this, and I remember some that deal with protecting your trailer from rocks in particular. Good luck.

[PopBeavers]

I wonder what that would have done to any plumbing hanging below decks?


Several people have built a metal protector for the plumbing on their folding TMs. It is likely possible to do the same for the Elkmont.

I can say from experience that my rear hitch receiver hits the ground before the plumbing does.

My problem is that the front battery tray hits the ground a bit too early. I have had to replace that and make it a bit stronger so that when I hit football sized rocks on fire roads it won't break again.

[Redhawk]

I've towed several times on some pretty rough roads. Cottonwood pass out of Buena Vista, and some of the "roads" around Camp Hale to get to the perfect camp siite. All I've had move was the bars on top of the gas stove. Only a couple inches, but it did come out of the mounts. I think just laying a towel or 2 on top of it would hold it in place.
Main thing I noticed was that there were more "rub" marks from the 2 roof sections moving around a bit. Nothing serious, and I suspect they will clean off.

[Bill]

RedHawk -

FWIW, they won't really clean off, although they will clean up a bit. What you are seeing is the result of the paint being rubbed through, exposing the aluminum underneath. The aluminum oxidizes, producing the black powdery mark you see. You can clean off the black powder, but the bare aluminum will still show, and will oxidize again.

Use the Search tool to find posts on UHMW tape. It is an easy preventive, but you need to get it in place as soon as possible, before the rubbed areas become too large.

Bill

[Joseph]

We have not used my new TM yet (2720SL).
I have been reading the forum, and from some of the posts, it seems that the TM has problems on rough roads. The problems I have read about are:
1. Stuff working itself loose (tables, ovens, etc.)
2. Uncomfortable ride in the TV
3. Dust all over

I'm not really concerned with #3, I'm willing to clean the dust off.
But I would like to avoid #1 and 2.
We went on a 4 month trip to Alaska (from Georgia) with an Aliner in 2008, on some pretty rough roads, and we had a couple of things getting loose, but no problem with the TV ride. We would like to repeat the experience at some point in the future, so rough road handling is going to be important.
I would love to hear what strategies you have used to improve these problems; also, since next year we will probably buy a new TV, what would be the best choice?
I feel I'm taking advantage of everybody's expertise right now, I promise I will try to contribute something useful as soon as we actually go camping in the TM!:)

I have only 16 miles of rough road to my credit with the TM. Enough to make me not want to do it unless I have to. Nothing fell or came loose. Used to tow a Coleman Santa Fe pop-up that did not care where I towed it nor how fast. Have lots of rough road experience with that. No problems. But the TM seems to be a bit fragile for off road. Give Larsdenart a PM and get his input. He rock climbs in his. ( Well sort of ...;) ) I sealed the gaps in the shell / box area as follows. Check the space between your shells and box when closed. Your seals may be tight enough to keep out the dust. If not you can use those black pipe insulation sticks that you can get at home depot to close the gap. I keep straps in the cab just in case the latches fail. TV is a dedicated vehicle, see signature. Best advise I have is to go slow and beef up the tires if you have not already. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

[rickst29]

#1. Don't run your TM tires at the "maximum cold PSI" marked on the sidewall. Instead, take your setup to a weight station, and find out the loading on the tires. You can weight the axle and divide by two, but it would be a useful learning experience to weight each of the TM tires individually. (Use the results to adjust your loading technique, keeping the load on the two tires in balance.)

Of curse, this measurement is taken with WDH cinched up, and with the TM loaded with "typical" travel contents. (Be sure to fill the water tank, if you'll be driving on rough roads with water tank filled -- something which you should avoid, if you can. Water is over 8 lbs per gallon, it's over 330 lbs to fill my 40 gallon tank and water lines.)

Then, use your tire manufacturer's "tire loading versus PSI table" to look up the recommended PSI for that loading. Add only 5 lbs of additional "safety factor".
- - - - -
Typical result? My 15" Marathon tires, on a heavily loaded 2619, should be pumped up to only 45-50 lbs. That's according to Goodyear, and they know their tires. The sidewall max is 65 lbs, and using that figure will shake your contents (and torflex axle) in the manner of Fred Flintstone's vehicle. Lots of TM owners just pump their tires to the max, and old TM manuals used to say that in the instructions. (I don't know if they still do.) Legally safer for them, but not really the right thing to do.

#2. Slow Down!

[Wavery]

Typical result? My 15" Marathon tires, on a heavily loaded 2619, should be pumped up to only 45-50 lbs. That's according to Goodyear, and they know their tires. The sidewall max is 65 lbs, and using that figure will shake your contents (and torflex axle) in the manner of Fred Flintstone's vehicle. Lots of TM owners just pump their tires to the max, and old TM manuals used to say that in the instructions. (I don't know if they still do.) Legally safer for them, but not really the right thing to do.

[/B]

The reason that TM used to recommend max PSI was because they originally used 14" tires that were typically maxed out when in service. Since switching to 15" tires with a higher rating (which they should have done 10 years ago) it has become less critical to run at max PSI.

As you stated........it is important to get the rig weighed so that one is using the correct values in the calculation as apposed to using the trailers "Dry weight" (as so many do) or guesstimating.

[ShrimpBurrito]

Perhaps wmtire can pitch in here, but it is my understanding that the tire weight tables are not established by individual manufacturers, but rather an industry trade group (Tire and Rim Association?).

Here is an example of such a table: http://www.maxxis.com/Repository/Files/m8008load.pdf

Dave

[rickst29]

Yes Dave: A reply from WMtire will absolutely rule :D on this issue. And you could very well be right about this: Your table, from Maxxis, is identical to Goodyear's table in all the figures which appear in both tables. (the Maxxis table doesn't go down to 15; and the Goodyear table doesn't go up to include Load Range "E" - because they don't make 'em.)

Wayne- I had the impression that TM has long recommended 65 PSI on those models which came with 15" tires standard- e.g., 3124. I've been talking (yelling?) about this for years. Do you know whether they recommend "tuned PSI" to owners of new 2619/2720 Trailers with15" tires, or do they still say "65 PSI"? (If anyone knows, please chime in.)

[Wavery]

Yes Dave: A reply from WMtire will absolutely rule :D on this issue. And you could very well be right about this: Your table, from Maxxis, is identical to Goodyear's table in all the figures which appear in both tables. (the Maxxis table doesn't go down to 15; and the Goodyear table doesn't go up to include Load Range "E" - because they don't make 'em.)

Wayne- I had the impression that TM has long recommended 65 PSI on those models which came with 15" tires standard- e.g., 3124. I've been talking (yelling?) about this for years. Do you know whether they recommend "tuned PSI" to owners of new 2619/2720 Trailers with15" tires, or do they still say "65 PSI"? (If anyone knows, please chime in.)

I really don't know. It might be interesting to hear from the owner of a newer model with an Owners Manual.

My impression of TM (the manufacturer) is that they are very slow to make changes (including problem solving) and when they do, it seems to "Rock-the-boat" at the assembly plant. It seems like the employees just want to go in and do the same thing that they've been doing for years and don't appreciate change much.

It would not surprise me at all if it took 2-3 years to update the Owners Manual about tire specs. However, now that it has been brought up here, they may do it sooner. I firmly believe that they finally switched to 15" tires based on all of the (negative) info on this forum (which is available to all of their potential customers). It's not the past customers that they care about, it's what their past customers "Say" on this forum that can definitely have an effect on their sales.....and I'm sure they know it.

I have NO DOUBT that all of the negative posts about the Elkmont, on this forum, has had a negative effect on their sales.........if they don't realize that....they are in for some big trouble. Businesses that do not pay attention to their customers do not survive in todays climate.

[PopBeavers]

But like I said before, if the height of a 15 inch wheel is at all taller than a 14 inch wheel, and if you have the low profile roof a/c, then it will be too tall to fit in a garage with a 7 foot door. I have 1/4 inch vertical clearance.

Very few tract home have a garage door taller than 7 feet.

I have considered lowering the tire pressure to lower the TM height, but I doubt it is good to store it for several months with low tire pressure, and I have it so close to the wall that I can not get to one tire at all to re-inflate it and then let the air out on the next trip.

[ShrimpBurrito]

I have considered lowering the tire pressure to lower the TM height, but I doubt it is good to store it for several months with low tire pressure,

Actually, just today I was reading a tire care by Carlisle and they said storing tires at lower pressures can help extend service life. See the bottom of page 7 of this PDF:

http://www.carlisletire.com/product_care/trailer_tire_service_guide.pdf

Dave

[Scott O]

Wayne et. al. I have found that I can completely lift the wheels of my TM off the floor when in storage. I retract the tongue jack as much as possible, then lower the rear stabilizers as much as possible. Then extend the tongue jack as much as possible, and lower the front stabilizers as much as possible. Then you can retract the tongue jack and swing the tongue if you have that feature, as all of the weight will now be on the stabilizers. The tires will wind up about 1/2" off the ground. Among other things, it would allow you to lower the pressure in your tires and store the TM that way without damaging the tires. Of course, this assumes that the stabilizers on your TM are the newer version designed to support the entire weight of the TM. Hey, works for me!

[PopBeavers]

I thought about doing something like that.

I can not get to the rear street side jack when it is in the garage, because I have the rear backed up to the wall and the street side is up against another wall.

What I could do is stop a foot short, so that the tongue wheel is on the nearly level garage floor instead of the sloping driveway. I could then disconnect and lower the tongue down and then lower the rear street jack so it is just above the floor, then push the TM in the last foot by hand. Then crank up the tongue until that corner jack just touches the floor. Then lower the other rear jack until it also just touches the floor. Then use the tongue jack to raise the front up, taking the weight off of the partly deflated tires. Then set the front corner jacks, I can get to both of them. Then I can swing the tongue around.

For someone that tries to go camping once a month from February until October, that is a lot of work. The only practical solution for me is to not allow the diameter of an inflated tire increase. To go to 15 inch wheels I would need a low profile tire, which, if it existed, would, I think, defeat the entire reason for going to a 15 inch wheel. A 15 inch wheel with a low profile tire would actually contain less air in the tire, which would likely increase the problem of heat in the tires.

[ShrimpBurrito]

PopBeavers - You may have missed my post above, but I think deflating the tires a bit before you push it into the garage -- and leaving them deflated until your next trip -- is a possible option for you.

Dave