Toyota RAV4

[pchartier]

We are looking at buying either a Elkmont 22 footer or a Trailmanor 2720. They are both at the approximate 2800 - 2900 dry weight range. Has anyone ever towed one of these units with a Toyota RAV4? Mine is a 2011 with the towing package and can tow up to 3500 pounds. It's cutting it close and before I buy something I'l be sorry for, I would like some opinions. Thanks in advance.

[rvcycleguy]

There has been a serious conversation here recently about a 3500 lbs tow limit vehicle. Its not a pretty sight. The overall conclusion is NOT to attempt it. For many reasons like the appox weight is not accurate for the "wet" weight, camping gear, TV gear, and the most vital and important reason is stopping distance or braking power.
here is a basic scenario..

My 3300 lb trailer is really a 3500 Lb trailer when loaded with weekend camping gear. It has a tongue weight of 350 lbs. 825-350=475 lbs.
So I have 475 lbs for passengers and cargo.
Two adults at 170 lbs each, or 340 lbs, and we have 135 lbs left.
The two kids are 100 lbs each, for 200 lbs, so we’ve just exceeded the LOAD CAPACITY by 45 Lbs. One of the 100 Lb kids has to stay with friends, so we have 35 Lbs left over for baggage and for Fido. Fido goes to the kennel, and we’re good to go with a cooler and toothbrushes. No clothes. Sorry.

Now we’re loaded to GVWR. Will we be over GCVWR? For my RAV-4, GCVWR is 8100 lbs. GVWR is 4720. 4720+3500=8220. Whoops, I’m over by 120 Lbs. So I have to leave 120 Lbs of my 200 Lbs of camping gear behind to hit GCVWR. I didn’t even include the bikes and canoe, which are a total no go.

So, according to weight, the RAV-4 CAN NOT TOW a 3500 Lb trailer with a family of four people, and normal gear. No need to go to the scales.

[Scottie Dogs]

Before I bought my 2720SL I was thinking about the Ford Edge to tow it with the towing package but I thought again. We went with the new Ford Explorer which tows 5000 pounds (instead of 3,000 pounds) and very happy with it. You have to think of all the extra weight you will put in the TM. Plus the weight that the factory gives you I think is a little off, not sure if they include the A\C, filled LP tanks, awning and other things, plus the stuff you will put in the TV. Remember when you hit the gas pedal in the mountains you want to move and go. We camp in the mountains all the time.

Dave

[Bluegrass]

The Rav4 has a very short wheelbase. I'd be very reluctant to pull with that as a TV.

Just my opinion.

Keith

[ELM-JLM]

We own a 2011 Rav4 as our second vehicle! I would never, ever, consider it as a tow vehicle!

[hillbillyhotel]

would have to say ditto,
nice ride, just not a tv for that size of tm behind it,

randy

[Bill]

... You have to think of all the extra weight you will put in the TM. Plus the weight that the factory gives you, not sure if they include the A\C, filled LP tanks, awning and other things, plus the stuff you will put in the TV.

Dave

The weight published on the TM site is, as stated the "dry weight". TM also tells you to add 500-1000 pounds to determine the "towed weight". This is about a minimum, in my opinion - you should about 1000 pounds to determine what your tow weight is likely to be. Yes, you can come in lighter, but few of us ever do.

The "dry weight" on the spec sheet does NOT include any factory options such as air conditioner, awning, battery, or swing tongue, since these are not standard items and you might not buy them.

All of this is shown on the web site, though you do have to be attentive to understand it.

Bill

[scrubjaysnest]

Our 3200+ lb dry 2720 sl is much closer to 4000# when we add food and other things 40# for two propane bottles, Roof ac around 100#, swing tongue, power tongue jack, 35 # for solar panels plus the wiring for it. You can see where this going because we don't carry water. With the Elkmont you will also need to take into account the square footage of frontal of the trailer.
My old jeep wrangler is limited to 25 square feet.

[brulaz]

We have the 24' Elkmont, and it weighs in at ~4000# with about 620# tongue weight. I wouldn't tow it or the 22' Elkmont with a Rav4.

[pchartier]

Thanks everyone. I guess I'll rethink my plans. I appreciate all your input.

[Bill]

All that being said, there are a few members of this board that tow with a RAV4. You might use the Search tool on "RAV4" to find their discussion.

Although it never seems to work out that way, a towing discussion should always begin with "Where do you plan to tow?" Your RAV4 will have better possibilities if you plan to stick to the flatlands of Indiana or Florida. You will have a much worse experience if you plan to get into the Rockies or Sierras, or to some extent the Blue Ridge Mountains.

If you search out other threads, be careful of overly optimistic statements such as "You can tow anywhere in the US if you stay on an Interstate highway." I strongly disagree with that.

Bill

[ThePair]

Ditto to what Bill is saying. I tow with a Sienna (3500# tow rating) and I know that I'm right at the spec limit on the scales. However, I tow only in the flat midwest (Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana), and the wheelbase length of the Sienna is substantially longer than the wheelbase of the RAV4. I would not feel comfortable with a shorter vehicle, nor one with a lower GCVWR (Sienna has a very large cargo capacity since it's a 3-row minivan), nor if I were traveling anyplace mountainous.

[brulaz]

The upright Elkmont handles a lot differently than the folding Trailmanors. It catches the wind cause of its frontal area.

So on the Prairies you can run into conditions worse than in the mountains. We fought prairie head winds for a day and half across Manitoba which taxed our old Tacoma V6 worse than the Northern Rockies did.

Just one more thing to consider.

[PopBeavers]

My brother was driving a 1974 Pinto Station Wagon across the desert on his way from California to Yellowstone.

Somewhere along the way he saw a "dust devil" (aka mini tornado). He thought it would be fun to try to hit it.

Big mistake. It nearly ran him into a ditch.

Just as a guess, small low profile trailers behind a reasonably large TV would fair better.

Even better, never aim for one intentionally.

Just a random thought I am passing along. I have seen these little devils, but not as big as the one my brother hit. He said it was about 6 feet tall.

It isn't just trucks and side winds that push you around.

[happybeebob]

My brother was driving a 1974 Pinto Station Wagon across the desert on his way from California to Yellowstone.

Somewhere along the way he saw a "dust devil" (aka mini tornado). He thought it would be fun to try to hit it.

Big mistake. It nearly ran him into a ditch.

Just as a guess, small low profile trailers behind a reasonably large TV would fair better.

Even better, never aim for one intentionally.

Just a random thought I am passing along. I have seen these little devils, but not as big as the one my brother hit. He said it was about 6 feet tall.

It isn't just trucks and side winds that push you around.

About ten years ago I also tried pulling a maneuver like that with a one ton van loaded with electrical looms. Thank goodness for that extra weight but it proved to me it is best you leave things like that to themselves. Scary

[Riwright]

My brother was driving a 1974 Pinto Station Wagon across the desert on his way from California to Yellowstone.

Somewhere along the way he saw a "dust devil" (aka mini tornado). He thought it would be fun to try to hit it.

Big mistake. It nearly ran him into a ditch.



I'm glad your brother was OK. Too bad the Pinto wasn't destroyed. :)

[Pitbull]

I can't believe Trailmanor lists the Rav4 as a recommended tow vehicle.

http://www.trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Camping-Towing/tow-vehicles.html

[Riwright]

I recently bought a used 3124KS with a "book weight" of 3000 lbs. My 2000 Lexus RX300 had a towing capacity of 3500 lbs.

I decided I would give it a try on a couple of short test trips. It wasn't pretty. It displayed a behaviour we now know to be called "chucking." When you go over bumps or uneven road the trailer pushes and pulls the tow vehicle. Felt like it was going to rip the transmission out.

Power up the hills was barely adequate. Braking was too slow. Something smelled evil under the hood.

We live in Southern California. There is some very hilly country here.

The trailer was not loaded for camping, in fact we pulled out everything that wasn't nailed down.

We bought a 2005 Toyota Tundra with a 7,100 lb towing capacity. Tows like a dream.

[hillbillyhotel]

just last week was taken the hotel by shop to have some things looked at, insted of going to house to get tv, used the olds bravada, was only going about ten miles each way, and it was mostly empty, do not know the rating on it, really does not matter, i will not be trying that stunt again,about called dw to bring tv to me, but i knew what that would be :new_argue, lets just say i know what you are talking about chucking, lol another life leason learned.

[Bill]

I can't believe Trailmanor lists the Rav4 as a recommended tow vehicle.Once again, there is no such thing as a recommended tow vehicle list, from TM or anyone else.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12349

Bill

[Barb&Tim]

Hmmm, well; :)

It may not be a recommended list but it surely does proclaim that many vehicles with a 3200lb tow rating are plenty sufficient to pull a 30ft trailmanor.

http://www.trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Camping-Towing/tow-vehicles.html

Tim

[scrubjaysnest]

and then the disclaimer:

Tow ratings for vehicles should be described as “general guidelines”. Actual towing limits depend on towing speed, highway grades, elevation, desired acceleration, miles towed per year, tow vehicle loading, frontal area of trailer, sway resistance of trailer, etc.
TrailManor provides uniquely easy towing per pound due to the very low wind drag and the very stable ride resulting from axle placement.
Light duty towing of a well-balanced trailer a few hundred pounds above the rating is much safer than towing a lighter, poorly balanced unit with a tendency to sway. Also, towing an upright trailer with large frontal area at highway speeds can damage a transmission even if the trailer weight is below the tow rating.
Adding options, batteries, gear, fluids can increase loaded weights as much as 1000 pounds above the base weight of a specific trailer. You should add 500- 1000 pounds to the base weights to estimate the actual towed weight.
Based on feedback from our owners, we provide the following model guidance:
MODERATE TOWING CONDITIONS
Mostly low altitudes, only occasional steep grades, part time service, normal highway speeds - Models 2619 through 3023 need at least 3500 pound tow rated vehicles and Models 3124 through 3326 need 4000 pound ratings.
SEVERE TOWING CONDITIONS
High mountain towing, full time service - all models will perform better with at least 4000 pound rated tow vehicles.

[moaboy]

I have only pulled my 2009.5 2720 with tow vehicles rated at 3500 and never had a problem, but they have been with longer wheel based vehicles like my Odyssey. I would not recommend pulling an Elkmont with a Rav 4.
If one looks closely at the info in the recent trailer life tow rating publication, i found it interesting what vehicles were rated at 3500, 4500, and 5000 lbs.
Some of them had the same or similar engine and other equipment seemed like only difference was weight and wheelbase.

[Barb&Tim]

Yes, i suppose that might be considered a disclaimer but since it was posted as "A few more notes about tow ratings:", it makes it appear that the disclaimer is just secondary information that is not very important.


What I forgot to mention is that there is a picture on the web page of a bunch of vehicles (Rav4 being 1) with the statement "What do all of these vehicles have in common"...... They can all tow a 30'TM"

This being displayed in the most prominent position to increase it's importance.


Tim

[scrubjaysnest]

Yes, i suppose that might be considered a disclaimer but since it was posted as "A few more notes about tow ratings:", it makes it appear that the disclaimer is just secondary information that is not very important.


What I forgot to mention is that there is a picture on the web page of a bunch of vehicles (Rav4 being 1) with the statement "What do all of these vehicles have in common"...... They can all tow a 30'TM"

This being displayed in the most prominent position to increase it's importance.


Tim

Which is good advertising.

[Pitbull]

Once again, there is no such thing as a recommended tow vehicle list, from TM or anyone else.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12349

Bill

I don't know but when you show/list a Rav4 and make the statement;

"They can all tow a 30-foot TrailManor. Easily."

I would think/interpret that as a recommendation!

Koz

[Bill]

Well, the discussion is getting out of hand - again - but the "recommendation" has to be taken with a grain of salt like all advertising. It doesn't say anything about the weight of the TM, so you have to assume they are talking about the dry weight, not the weight with factory options or any of the stuff you put in the trailer. And it doesn't say anything about the amount of stuff/weight you put in your tow vehicle, whose manufacturer's ratings are always for an empty tow vehicle with no passengers except a driver. And most important (to me), it doesn't say anything about WHERE YOU WILL TOW, a point which continues to get lost somehow. I hope it is clear to everyone that towing on the flatlands of Indiana at 600 feet above sea level is different from towing up I-70 on either approach to the Eisenhower Tunnel, where you will be towing at 11,000 feet, over miles of up- and down-grades exceeding 7%. I can tell you that my Explorer, with a 7000 pound tow rating, was rather unhappy with that situation. Should I blame TM for this? And in this situation, a vehicle rated 3500 pounds would scare me to death.

So it is up to you, the camper and customer, to do a little thinking, and not just blindly buy-and-drive. And that is what this forum tries to help everyone do.

Having said all that, I'm the first to say that I am not real fond of the way TM handles this issue. But they do a better job of it than the other trailer manufacturers, particularly the makers of upright trailers in the 8,000 pound class. Everything that I have said here - and the things you should think about - is also stated on the Trailmanor web site, right below the link you mention.

Given that there is no "standard" weight for a TM, no requirment on how you load it, no agreement (or even a definition!) of the tow rating of any given tow vehicle, and no specification of where you will tow, how would you suggest that TM could improve their site?

By the way, we will all have better (though not perfect) answers to the tow rating question when, starting with the 2013 models, the tow vehicle manufacturers begin to test their vehicles against a set of defined, common standards laid out in a national standard called SAE J2807. Until now, the tow vehicle manufacturers could claim any number they wanted, and of course no manufacturer would dare list anything less than his competition. Toyota has put out a really good article on the whole issue at
http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2010/06/14/trailer-tow-rating-standards/. It is worth looking at.

Bill

[Barb&Tim]

Bill, Not sure why you think this discussion is out of hand. I thought that the discussion was civil and pleasant. :)

Tim

[Bill]

Tim -

I didn't mean "out of hand" in terms of uncivil or unpleasant, but simply wildly repetitive. The link provided in post #20 of this thread says all the same stuff, and said it only two months ago. And it was covered a month before that in http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12161 (though that discussion was buried in another topic).

The goal is simply to prevent new owners from reading about a "recommended tow vehicle list", following a link, and blindly accepting what they find there. Instead, they need to think about what they are reading, compare it to their needs, and evaluate. You may remember that not long ago, a new member came on and joyously announced that he just bought a 3124 and planned to load it with six people and all their stuff, travel through the mountains in southern California, and pull it with some tiny car - a small Saturn, I think. The membership immediately told him it wasn't going to work, and he hasn't been back since. His Saturn was on the "recommended" list, but he read the list blindly and didn't think. I bet he wasn't very happy with TM, or with us.

As HarveyRV once posted I've got these neat new spark plugs that will give you 10% better gas mileage.....and an air filter that will give you 20% better mileage...a fuel additive that will give you another 10%......they can all prove this stuff too. Heck, if you buy enough of these things, you can have a vehicle that will theoretically produce gas as you drive....

We've also talked about carburetors that give 300 mpg. In each case, the message is the same. "Trust everyone in the game - but always cut the cards."

Bill

[Barb&Tim]

As for wildly repetitive, sorry, had not noticed that.

Bill, people are still going to find that info on trailmanor whether we post it on this board or not. I feel that it would be better to post the link and explain (and discuss) why some of the information there should not be taken seriously.

Maybe you should consider posting a stickie of things we should not be talking about on the board.

Tim

[Bill]

Tim -

Bill, people are still going to find that info on trailmanor whether we post it on this board or not. I feel that it would be better to post the link and explain (and discuss) why some of the information there should not be taken seriously.I agree. That's what the original linked thread set out to do.

Maybe you should consider posting a stickie of things we should not be talking about on the board.Don't be snide.

[Barb&Tim]

Whatever

Tim

[ELM-JLM]

I have to agree with Bill! The original post was a question! Post # 10 the original poster agreed with the majority! The original poster has not been back since! Trial member probably ran out of time! End of story!

[moaboy]

With all due respect, perhaps our moderator should look up the definition of "forum."

[happybeebob]

Bill:
Just want to take a minute to say thanks for what you do on the Forum. The Moderators job is certainly one that I would not relish. Same things being rehashed at different times by different people must make things rather hectic. Just saying that I and a lot of others appreciate it.

Bob

[Barb&Tim]

Earl, the irony is that i also agree with Bill. :)

Tim

[Pitbull]

As for wildly repetitive, sorry, had not noticed that.

Bill, people are still going to find that info on trailmanor whether we post it on this board or not. I feel that it would be better to post the link and explain (and discuss) why some of the information there should not be taken seriously.

Maybe you should consider posting a stickie of things we should not be talking about on the board.

Tim

I agree 100%.

I also think as an Owner's website it might be a good idea for the site/moderator to maybe contact Trailmanor and let them know how ridiculous their tow vehicle information is and the danger they are disseminating.

Koz

[Pitbull]

Bill:
Just want to take a minute to say thanks for what you do on the Forum. The Moderators job is certainly one that I would not relish. Same things being rehashed at different times by different people must make things rather hectic. Just saying that I and a lot of others appreciate it.

Bob

Not for nothing but the Moderator has to understand that every member does not read every post on the site before they post and should expect certain subjects to be constantly repeated and not get annoyed!

Koz

[rumbleweed]

Experienced TM owners have provided lots of technical data and experience as to why this TV should not be used to tow aTM. At this point maybe what is needed is to have a new owner tow with Rav4 and post their experience.

[Mr. Adventure]

My brother was driving a 1974 Pinto Station Wagon across the desert on his way from California to Yellowstone.

Somewhere along the way he saw a "dust devil" (aka mini tornado). He thought it would be fun to try to hit it...


This proves what I've always thought: You shouldn't try to hit anything with a 1974 Pinto.

The RAV 4 has a similar power train, about the same weight, and a slightly shorter wheelbase than my Highlander. If I were a flatlander and I could find a hitch receiver that could responsibly support a 500# tongue and a WDH, I might try it, knowing that I'd need to take it easy and keep speed under control. There are possible implications for a vehicle under warranty.

The best advice comes from TM owners with personal experience, IMO.

I just started a new thread that contains a spreadsheet to calculate your axle loads with a TrailManor and a WDH. You might try the numbers for a RAV4 and see how they come out: http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12552

[moaboy]

My Dad had a 1974 Pinto wagon and I loved it so much later I bought a new 1976 Pinto sedan, the one with the " exploding gas tank.". And it had the infamous Firestone 500 tires, that were recalled - of course after mine fell apart I had replaced them. Yes the good old days.
Also reminds me of a 1993 Nissan Quest I had that was rated to pull 3500lbs.
It had an inline six rated at 151 hp. Handled great just underpowered.
One does have to wonder how they arrive at the recommended tow limits sometimes?

[hillbillyhotel]

never had a pinto, was always a chevy vega man had a handfull of them, had to, so i could keep one running,pull into the station, check the gas and fill it up on oil, lol but it had a raceing strip and cool beauty rings on wheels, boy was they junk, lol just some thoughts from when i had hair:D

[PopBeavers]

My 1974 Pinto Wagon was totaled while I was driving it.

I was stopped on the freeway. I estimate that the car that hit me was going 35-45 mph on impact.

I was in the leftmost lane. I saw the car coming at me when it was still at least 1/8 mile behind me. I considered going into the dirt center divide. But I concluded that if I did that then the diver might have to choose who to hit.

I was stopped. I left about 10 feet between me and the car in front of me. I leaned back hard into the high back seats. I had my foot gently on the brake. I was in neutral. I gripped the steering wheel tightly. I kept my elbows out and flexed, not rigid.

The driver had an opportunity to go into the center divide, but decided to hit me instead.

The rear floor over the left rear wheel buckled a bit. The car was drivable, but the rear wheels were definitely not aligned properly.

I don't think the exploding gas tank problem was happening with the station wagons.

I walked away. The other driver was in her car upside down. She was taken to the hospital.

I did have a minor backlash problem that required no treatment.

I have memories of that day. Not fond memories, just memories.

It was November 1980. The Monday after the 13th. I can remember the day vividly because my daughter was born that 13th.

She almost had no daddy.

She almost had no baby brother.