Brake Lock-up on Dual Axle -Tire distruction

[ZekenSpider]

This thread may apply to the 3326 only as it is the only TM with dual axle configuration.

My 2010 3326 (delivered in August of 2009) has been a joy to tow and camp in. The shake down trip of 220 miles was a pleasure as was a 1,700 mile trip to and from Petaluma, CA and a weekend trip to the Catalina Mountains in Tuscon.

The brakes have always worked correctly, but would occasionally feel a little "grabby" at slow speeds. Tire /wheel temperatures (TST tire monitor) always appeared normal (usually in the 95 degree area except in the late summer in Phoenix). The brake adjustment was checked OK at 210 miles and was due again in about 500 miles.

Last week, while heading to my local dealer (AZ Campers and Trailers) to have the heater exhaust system replaced, I noticed white smoke behind the TM. Upon examination, I found the TM front, right wheel locked up (not turning). By the time I drove to a safe place to jack up that side, the tire had worn through the belt and was going flat. Only then did my TST monitor tell me a problem existed.

AZ Campers and Trailers sent a field tech to my assistance. After checking for a possible electrical malfunction, he pulled the tire, then with great difficulty, the hub/drum. The drum was found to be 1/8th inch out of round and had probably locked-up the brake at my last traffic signal stop.

The work is not yet done (waiting for parts), but Dexter Axle is replacing the entire hub/drum/brake system on the front axle, right side and TM is supplying a new tire. All the work is being done under warranty. The real question is what happened?

The only answer so far is "stuff happens". I see, on other RV forums, that dual axle brake lock-up is an occasional discussion topic and warped drums are considered the cause. What is really clear is; on a dual axle trailer, a tire can be destroyed within just a few blocks of driving if a brake-locks up. And... it is very hard to detect that it is happening. By the time you see the smoke, it is too late.

It looks like I need a wheel rotation sensor as well as all the other bells and whistles. On the other hand, this probably will not happen again. Heh, heh heh.

Jerry

[ShrimpBurrito]

Sigh. Sometimes a tent looks so attractive. :D

Maybe I don't have a good perspective on this, but to me, a drum being out of round by 1/8" sounds very, very bad. Bad as in it should have been very obvious at Dexter's manufacturing line. If it wasn't a manufacturing defect, perhaps someone over torqued your lug nuts....I am guessing that could potentially be adequate force to warp a drum.

You say you saw dual axle brake lock-up discussed a few times on other forums....did you see anything on single axle lockup? If it locked up due to a warped drum, that would make it just as likely to happen on a single axle.

Dave

[ZekenSpider]

Sigh. Sometimes a tent looks so attractive. :D

Maybe I don't have a good perspective on this, but to me, a drum being out of round by 1/8" sounds very, very bad. Bad as in it should have been very obvious at Dexter's manufacturing line. If it wasn't a manufacturing defect, perhaps someone over torqued your lug nuts....I am guessing that could potentially be adequate force to warp a drum.

You say you saw dual axle brake lock-up discussed a few times on other forums....did you see anything on single axle lockup? If it locked up due to a warped drum, that would make it just as likely to happen on a single axle.

Dave

So far my search for what may cause lock-up has not turned up any single axle examples. I'm sure it can happen, but is probably noticed (felt) more easily by the TV driver.

The 1/8th out of round warped condition was considered really bad by the dealer technician (actually the first tech to work on the brake could not figure out what caused the lock-up). Fortunately there was an old retired horse trailer mechanic on duty that day and he said he thought the drum was warped. It was. He said "it happens". He had seen a few in his experience but never could figure out what caused it.

The Dexter Axle manual and website have no statement on the subject and only comment that over-torquing can damage the studs. The warped hub shows up as a reason for brake lock-up in Dexter's troubleshooting charts, but they offer no explanation for what causes the warping. I suspect it's possible to bend a drum by tightening studs out-of-sequence or by having weight on the wheel when it is tightened.

The axles are shipped and handled in a way that a drum could be bent by a blow such as dropping. Who knows!

I have asked the dealer to examine the other three drums.

We will see.

Jerry

[Wavery]

I'm a little surprised that they didn't catch that when they adjusted the brakes @ 210 miles...........or......did they really do it???:rolleyes:

[ZekenSpider]

I'm a little surprised that they didn't catch that when they adjusted the brakes @ 210 miles...........or......did they really do it???:rolleyes:

They said they did...heh, heh. I checked them myself about a week later and everything felt OK. I could hear a slight drag as I rotated each wheel. The paint on each drum still looked fresh (black) and nothing appeared out of round. Of course I may not have noticed a 1/16th inch change in radius. The paint was still black on the drum when it was removed by the dealer.

I am still puzzled why this would cause a lock up that would not release after backing up. Still looking for answers.

Jerry

[robertkennel]

If you adjust a brake so that it just touches the drum and then you do some breaking the spot that just touches causes more heat because the drum has expanded. Now there is more pressure from shoe to drum causing more heat and even more pressure when the brakes ARE NOT applied. Snow ball effect and then the brake locks up. Your brakes probably were adjusted and the out of round was possibly caused by overheating. I've seen the exact same thing on elevator brakes when the are NOT adjusted to lift completely during runs. That little bit of drag builds over many runs and then sets off the building smoke detector. But then again it was 1200 miles since the brake adjust. Maybe a slight out of round condition caused the heat snow ball effect which then caused a big out of round condition.

It could of happened this way and maybe not. Robert

[MudDog]

There's a long discussion about a similar incident on this blog:

http://http://rv-dreams.typepad.com/rvdreams_journal/2009/09/index.html

In the end, I'm not sure they ever got to the root cause (bad drum, bad magnets, brakes adjusted too tight on that wheel) but they had re-occurences of the original problem after replacing the drum. Dexter ended up covering the costs and I believe paying for a tire replacement.

[mjlaupp]

There's a long discussion about a similar incident on this blog:

http://http://rv-dreams.typepad.com/rvdreams_journal/2009/09/index.html

In the end, I'm not sure they ever got to the root cause (bad drum, bad magnets, brakes adjusted too tight on that wheel) but they had re-occurences of the original problem after replacing the drum. Dexter ended up covering the costs and I believe paying for a tire replacement.

Error, try this one:

http://www.rv-dreams.typepad.com/rvdreams_journal/2009/09/index.html

Mike

[MudDog]

Error, try this one:

http://www.rv-dreams.typepad.com/rvdreams_journal/2009/09/index.html

Mike

Woops - thanks Mike!

--jim

[ED-n-KEL]

Assuming the original drum was in spec, then warped brake drum/rotors are almost always caused by the brakes overheating, then cooling rapidly. On a car, this would be caused by either driving habits, terrain, or another undiagnosed brake issue causing one brake or axle to work harder then the other.
If this brake started off not being adjusted probably, it would heat up even when the brakes are not applied. The normal temps this time of the year would cool the drum rapidly when stopped for a burger, etc. You then take off and start the process all over again....snowballing the issue.
The fact that this brake totally locked up puts it in a category by itself...making me think the drum was defective to start with, put on incorrectly, or dropped at some point.

After getting several new brake rotors that were warped right out of the box, I raised hell with the local parts store manager. I was told this was common due to shipping and stocking. I told him they need to quit hiring gorillas. Also considering that it's almost impossible to buy anything not made in China, Malaysia, etc.
Based on this, the potential for a new warped drum going on from the factory is not that far fetched, and unless TM is checking each one prior to installing, then "there ya go..".

A good "pre-trip check" that anyone can do for this would be to simply jack each side of the trailer and spin the wheels with your hands. If the tires spin freely, you're in good shape. If any of them tend to lope or have a "catch point", then you have a warping problem starting. If not corrected, it will simply get worse as time goes by.

[ZekenSpider]

Dave, MudDog(Jim), Wayne, Mike, Robert, Ed & Kelly;

Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The saga continues with no repair as yet completed. It's a good thing we are not on the road somewhere. If we were, this could resemble that story at;

http://www.rv-dreams.typepad.com/rvd.../09/index.html

They never found out what caused the problem, but at least the new brakes and hub/drum appeared to fix it.

Our dealer completed the repairs (except for a new tire) on the 11th and called for me to pick it up. He would put the spare on the repaired hub so we could tow it and would be getting the new tire in within a "couple of weeks". That was OK with us since we planned to store the TM until after Christmas and I wanted to double check all the brakes anyhow.

Dexter was paying for all the brake parts and work and Goodyear was supplying a new tire through TM under warranty.

Ten minutes later he called again to say they had installed a 5 bolt hub instead of the 6 bolt hub it requires. The wheel would not fit. Dexter Axle or someone in the parts loop sent the wrong hub (the 3,500# axle used by TM is shipped from Dexter with either a 4, 5 or 6 bolt hub. The 3326 uses a 6 bolt).

Now, maybe it will be repaired by Wednesday, the 16th.

As to what caused the "out-of-round" drum and the lock-up, Dexter's service engineer says the drum was probably bent at the time we took delivery of the TM and that particular brake had been adjusted to eliminate the drag caused by the "out-of-round" condition. The brakes would work properly under that condition (called "under adjusted") until the shoes wore to a point where the magnet got hung up on the rear shoe. He says it is a common problem if the adjustment is ignored beyond the recommended mileage limits (3,000 miles). Typically this will occur around 6 to 8 thousand miles, depending on driving conditions, and this allows the magnet arm to swing too far to the rear.

The attached picture from the TM factory tour gives an idea of the way the axles are handled before they are installed on a TM.

I hope he is right. I know I will be taking a really close look at all my brakes before the next trip.

Thanks for being there. You folks and this site are the best resource on TM information one could ever hope for.

Jerry

[robertkennel]

I wonder what Dextor thinks of the TM storage photograph? A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Wavery]

I wonder what Dextor thinks of the TM storage photograph? A picture is worth a thousand words.

Personally, I don't see a problem with the way that they are stacked. The problem is if any one axle is dropped.

I would think that if the axle were dropped, the damage would be obvious by a bent backing plate.

[Bill]

I'm with Wayne on this one. These things aren't made of dainty tissue paper - they are tough steel assemblies. If simply stacking them could cause the kind of problems described here, then I imagine that the first thing that would happen is that Dexter would need a lot more floor area for storage. And the second thing is that problems would be a lot more prevalent than they are.

Yes, dropping one on a concrete floor could deform an externally-visible part. If that part were used in assembly, then that would be a problem - but no manufacturer would willingly do that, since it would cause the kind of bad press we are seeing here. If the thing was actually deformed, it would seem to me to be equally likely that someone (perhaps a dealer or a transporter) bashed a curb or dropped a trailer. There could be a number of causes for bent parts. But neither Dexter nor TM would adopt practices that could routinely cause it.

Just my thoughts ...

Bill

[ZekenSpider]

Apparently I un-intentionally touched a nerve in my post #11. I'm sorry if I have cast the impression that TM caused this brake problem.

My posting of the picture of stacked axles was intended to show a general industry handling method that could result in unintended damage of the type suggested by the Dexter Axle engineer. I did not mean to imply that the TM procedures were at fault. I really do not know how my drum became distorted. I was just reporting what I have found.

I had no intent of being critical of TM in that post...... but please remember where I am coming from. I already have some serious questions about the QC on my TrailManor 3326, especially since finding the heater intake and exhaust disconnected. That "error" has now been corrected by the dealer at no charge, but what does it say about TM's supervision, general procedures and final testing? I'm not saying anything here that I haven't already said to Ed at TM.

Attached are pictures of the unconnected heater for reference.

Jerry

[Bill]

No ruffled feathers here, Zeke, though it is a good idea to be careful of what our words imply that we didn't intend. On the other hand, your furnace experience certainly would ruffle my feathers, and I would make a big stink about it. In my view, that is an inexcusable problem, and it is obvious exactly where it happened and who should have caught it.

Bill

[ED-n-KEL]

Apparently I un-intentionally touched a nerve in my post #11. I'm sorry if I have cast the impression that TM caused this brake problem.

I'll start by saying this kind of damage could have been caused anywhere in the process, at the drum manufacturer, at Dexter, at TM, by the inspection mechanic, etc.
While the pict shows them being stacked, it doesn't show how high, if there are secured, etc. So if they are stacked 20 or so across and 20 or so high, then the simple act of stacking could certainly cause this damage depending on the weight involved (to the bottom units) and the handling practices.
I'm certain they are not handled by hand, so a mistake by the forklift driver could cause this damage.
Even if they are not highly stacked, if they are not secured, falling from just a foot or so off the ground could do this kind of damage. Let's not even bring up the damage to the wheel bearings if this happened.
As Jerry says, it's a pict showing general storage practices, and it tells me that they are certainly susceptible to damage, not necessarily that this practice is doing the damage.
While the drums are certainly made of steel, it's not hardened steel (and probably from China). The general shape of the drum makes them prone to damage....and please remember that the "damage" we're referring to is not cracking, chipping, or generally catastrophic failure of the steel. We are talking about knocking the internal precision machining out of spec by fractions of an inch. The machining is what makes them fragile.

[Wavery]

I already have some serious questions about the QC on my TrailManor 3326, especially since finding the heater intake and exhaust disconnected. That "error" has now been corrected by the dealer at no charge, but what does it say about TM's supervision, general procedures and final testing? I'm not saying anything here that I haven't already said to Ed at TM.

Attached are pictures of the unconnected heater for reference.

Jerry

Scary...very-very scary.............The 1st night of using that furnace like that could well have been the last night alive for your whole family. That is beyond inexcusable IMO that's just down right negligent.

How on earth did you catch that? I can't even imagine something like that being missed. I think that TM should recall every single unit for an inspection. I am just shocked......I can't think of any other word for it.

There is a lot to be said for buying second hand......let the new owner go through all the hassles, frustrations and dangers of working the bugs out of a newly constructed unit. Same goes for cars. I worked in management for GM and GM dealerships most of my life. I got a new car every 6 months. I was so sick of working the bugs out of new cars that I vowed never to buy new as long as I live.

[robertkennel]

I've bought two new Toyotas and there were NO bugs to work out.

Maybe I was just lucky and maybe Toyota was just lucky not to need a bailout like GM and Chrysler.

Like I said, a picture is worth a thousand words. Quoting Forrest Gump: And that's all I got to say about that.