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Old 07-03-2003, 09:33 AM   #61
Sinclue
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Bruce,

Thanks for the heads-up on Liquid Nails.  I've used it for wood applications, but never realized it could be used in dis-similiar applications.  Guess I'll have to tell my wife that I have to spend more time in the hardware store so I can catch up on my knowledge  
Right!

I do like the idea of being able to keep your batteries topped off with the fixed setup.  I have to store my unit away from home so I wind up lugging the batteries back and forth and in and out.  At some 60# apiece its not the thrill it used to be.   :P

And by the time you are ready for your next TM hopefully solar technology will be even more advanced and you'll want newer panels anyway.  I was recently reading somewhere that the next generation of solar cells will generate over five times the power for the size.  So panels the size of our 75w would be rated closer to 400w...over 20amps per hour in direct sun.  Won't that be great?

jim
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Old 07-03-2003, 09:36 AM   #62
Bill
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Quote:
Bill, Et Al -
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but technically, Amps are the unit of measure for electrical current in a particular circuit at a given voltage through certain Ohms resistance in the wire. [remainder snipped to fit within posting requirements] ...
Gregg -

Electrical stuff is really pretty simple - but the terminology is confusing. (Keeps us electrical engineers in a job!) But for most purposes, a good analogy can be drawn between a solar electric system and a water system, where the terminology is easier to understand. Let me try this.

A water tank is the same as a battery. You can put water (or electric energy) into it - and then later, you can take that water (or electric energy) out of it. In each case, you need to know HOW FAST you are filling (or emptying) the tank, and HOW LONG you fill (or empty) it at that rate, because these things tell you HOW MUCH you put in, how much you are taking out, and how much is left at any given time.
In other words, you need to know the RATE at which you fill (or empty), the TIME which you run that rate, and the QUANTITY that you move.

The RATE at which water flows in a pipe is measured in "gallons per hour". The QUANTITY of water that moves is measured in gallons. Similarly, the RATE at which electric energy flows in a wire is measured in "amps". The QUANTITY of electrical energy that moves is measured in amp-hours.

So, for example, if you pump water into a tank at the RATE of 4 gallons per hour, and you let it flow into the tank for 6 hours, then the QUANTITY of water that you put into the tank is 24 gallons. Right? Four gallons per hour X 6 hours = 24 gallons.
Similarly, if you pump electricity into a battery at the RATE of 4 amps, and you let it flow into the battery for 6 hours, then the QUANTITY of electrical energy that you put into the battery is 24 amp-hours.

Once you have put 24 gallons of water into the tank, then you can withdraw it at any rate you choose, until it is gone. For example, you could draw 1 gallon per hour for 24 hours - or 8 gallons per hour for 3 hours - or 48 gallons per hour for 1/2 hour. Or on-and-off at varying rates, until you have used up the entire 24 gallons.
Similarly, once you have put 24 amphours of electricity into the battery, then you can withdraw it at any rate you choose, until it is gone. For example, you could draw 1 amphour per hour for 24 hours - or 8 amphours per hour for 3 hours - or 48 amphours per hour for 1/2 hour. Or on and off at varying rates, until you have used up the entire 24 amphours.
Sound tricky? Yes, certainly, until you realize that "1 amphour per hour" is the same thing as "1 amp"! So to rephrase the paragraph above, "once you have put 24 amphours of electrical energy into the battery, then you can withdraw it at any rate you choose, until it is gone. For example, you could draw 1 amp for 24 hours - or 8 amps for 3 hours - or 48 amps for 1/2 hour." In each case, you take 24 amphours out of the battery.

Did that make any sense? I hope so. In your post, you have the right picture, though the terminology (again) is confusing. What you are quite correctly saying is that if your solar panel charges your battery at 4 amps, and it does so for 6 hours of daylight, then it puts 24 amphours of energy into your battery. Later that night, you can withdraw that energy at the rate you choose. You can run a small light (2 amps) all night long (12 hours), or you can run a TV/VCR (3 amps) for 8 hours, or you can run your furnace blower (6 amps) for 4 hours. Or you can run all three (11 amps) for a bit more than 2 hours.

So in a practical sense, you need to know two things - the amount of time that the battery is being charged or discharged (this is easy, just look at your watch), and the rate at which it is being charged or discharged. To determine this, you need an ammeter. Without an ammeter, you don't know what is happening with your battery.

So your post is correct - good for you - with one minor exception. The whole system is running at 12 volts, and you can't get a shock from 12 volts. So your caution "Don't grab both wires when you're doing this..." isn't quite correct. Grab all the wires you want, you won't feel a thing.

This explanation is gaggingly long, I know, and perhaps isn't wonderfully clear, so feel free to ask more questions. I haven't done this in a long time ...

By the way, purists may take exception to certain points in the analogy. Like most analogies, it is instructive but not perfect. If you object, and would like to contact me off-list, please do so.

Bill
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Old 07-03-2003, 12:01 PM   #63
2619PDX
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Thanks, Bill. I think we've made our point.
To paraphrase a quote:
"It's the AMPS, Supid..."

No offense intended to anyone reading these posts...

Gregg
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:29 AM   #64
flyday
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Hi, defiantly uncomprehending here again ???-

SOOO, I measure amps EXACTLY the same way I measure volts and ohms, right? Just hold the little pointy metal sticky thingies to the ends of the wires or terminals(but not battery posts), spin the dial on my Wundermeter to the proper setting, and all shall be well? I must be clear on this...

Dick
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Old 07-04-2003, 06:22 AM   #65
RockyMtnRay
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Almost. Amps are a measurement of the amount of electricity that flows through the wires. Volts are a measure of the electrical pressure at some point in the circuit compared to some other point in the circuit (usually the zero or ground point). Ohms are a measure of resistance in some segment of the circuit...or how hard it is for the volts to push the amps through wires.

How to measure:

Amps: connect the meter's "thingies" so the current has to go through the meter. For instance, connect the meter between the battery post and the wire to the appliance (with the appliance turned on). Or cut the wire in half and connect the wire ends to the meter "thingies" so the current has to flow through the meter.

Volts: connect the meter "thingies" across the the thing to be measured...like between the two battery terminals, or between some point in the circuit and a known ground. Remember, you're measuring electrical pressure, not rate of flow. When you place a voltmeter between (or across) the battery terminals, very, very little current flows through the meter...you're measuring the electrical pressure between the battery terminals.

Ohms: Unhook the battery or any other source of power first!  An ohmmeter actually has its own little batttery and it determines resistance to flow by trying to push a tiny current through what you're measuring. So you hook it up sorta like the voltmeter...across the thing (appliance, wire, etc.)  you're measuring. Low readings mean there's little resistance to current flow; high readings mean there's great resistance. Wiring should have very low resistance.

Bottom line: Ohms and Volts: measure across something (stick the meter's probes ONTO two points of the circuit but NOT into the circuit); amps: measure what flows through something (must stick the meter's probes INTO the circuit).

Did that help?
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Old 07-04-2003, 06:36 AM   #66
Sinclue
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Dick,

Well, I'm not the electrical expert in the group, but I'd say you are pretty close.  I'd make sure my "wondermeter" was already set to the proper scale (that is if you are going to measure amps make sure you are set to read amps first).  Do make sure that your meter can actually read amps and not just mili-amps.  Only one of my "wondermeters" actually reads full amps.  That usually seems to take a more sophisitcated meter (although I got the one I use off of ebay for <$20).  Other than that you stick the "pointy thingies" on the same color wire...black "thingie" (usually called negative or common) goes to black wire and red "thingie" (usually called positive or hot) goes to red wire.  Just make sure, as I mentioned, that your meter has the capacity to read the maximum you would expect.  In other words a 75w panel will put out about 4amps in direct sun, two would generate over 8amps.  Just make sure your meter will read over 8amps (mine reads up to 10amps only) if you are testing two panels together.

Oh yeah, one slightly confusing thing is that we're all talking about 12v systems, but if you read the voltage from the solar panel it'll actually show closer to 19 or 20volts.  That is normal. I'll leave that to the electrical experts to explain.

Your panel should have some specs that should give you the basic information as to what readings you can expect.  If not then maybe the manufacturer has a web page with that information.

Hope this helps.

jim
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:09 PM   #67
flyday
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Default Re: Solar Panels on TM??

Ray & Jim-

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thanks, all clear now. My dear Uncle (Sam) was never clear about measuring amps. Volts and ohms we did all day long, hardly ever amps.

The pic is how things electric make my brain feel; hope it comes thru- BellSouth has my connection screwed up again.
Dick
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