Another new Elkmont report

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by brulaz

Had a chance to go over the roof today in the warm weather. Pulled out about 30ft of original caulk that had separated from the plastic strips (but was still tight on the aluminum), and replaced it with GE Silicon II caulk. The stuff I had done earlier (heating with a hair dryer) still looks tight, so hopefully that's the end of our leaks for now.

It depends on what the "plastic strips" are made of. If they are polyethylene (and I hope they aren't) nothing will stick to them.

You may want to check with TM to find the manufacturer of the strips. Then find out what kind of "plastic" they use and find a sealer that will adhere to that plastic. Most sealers will adhere to the paint that they use on the aluminum panels.

It's sort of disappointing that TM obviously didn't take the time to do that........ very unprofessional IMO.

Last night, in bed, it occurred to me that while on the roof of the Elkmont I was crawling on my hands and knees over a 1" aluminum laminated foam panel

Is this something I should be doing?
It seemed solid.
Has Trailmanor ever said anything?

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by brulaz

Last night, in bed, it occurred to me that while on the roof of the Elkmont I was crawling on my hands and knees over a 1" aluminum laminated foam panel

Is this something I should be doing?
It seemed solid.
Has Trailmanor ever said anything?

Ya........you might want to get yourself a sheet of 3/8" plywood, cut it in half (or even 1/4s) so that you can move them around as you go. At the very least, get some knee pads..........it all depends on how much you weigh. If you look at your roof, you may see dimples from your knees.

No dimples so far. I'll use knee pads next time though.
My late night fantasy was more about crashing through the roof. Guess this laminate is pretty strong.

Another irritating issue with the Elkmont. I mentioned earlier that the water pump was noisy. Finally got around to reading the Shurflo installation and operating manual and it says: "The pumps ports/strainer *should not* be connected to plastic or rigid pipe. The pump's normal vibration may transmit through rigid plumbing causing noise, and possibly loosen or crack components."

Well guess what? While on the tank side of the pump Trailmanor used a nice, soft plastic tubing with braid reinforcement, on the other side the pump is attached directly to the hard plastic plumbing used throughout the rest of the water system. I bet that's where the noise is coming from. All they needed to do was put about a foot of the soft stuff between the pump and city water input tee. What were they thinking? I guess they just weren't.

Not intending to ruffle any feathers but I am STILL trying to grasp why everyone is willing to accept the unacceptable???? These units are not cheap and should not have to be tweaked or worked on by new owners!!!!

Curly,
we spent a lot of time looking at other trailers and the only one that had the specs we liked was the Elkmont. Unfortunately, there is no Canadian Dealer for the Elkmont, so we went to Texas.

We were told by friends to buy a trailer (ANY trailer) close to home from a dealer that would fix any problems. Unfortunately that wasn't an option for us since we were set on the Elkmont.

It would have been nice if all these problems did not occur. But they did, I'm fixing them, end of story.

People who are not willing to go this route should buy from a reputable dealer close to home.

Oh, so it's the input or return, unheated air to the furnace that needs 55 sq in.
My installation may have that (or not). I'll check this weekend.

But if it's drawing in through 55 sq in it seems to me it would be better if it's putting out through 55 sq in so as not to restrict the air flow too much. I would definitely prefer that model number NT-20SE with the large front grill. And as you say, the easy access would be a plus. Wonder why they switched? I've seen pictures of the Elkmont with that model installed, and originally thought ours was one of them.

Heh, at least ours is screwed down. It also has a little plywood box around it. Not sure why ...

[cochise]

Originally Posted by brulaz

Oh, so it's the input or return, unheated air to the furnace that needs 55 sq in.
My installation may have that (or not). I'll check this weekend.

But if it's drawing in through 55 sq in it seems to me it would be better if it's putting out through 55 sq in so as not to restrict the air flow too much. I would definitely prefer that model number NT-20SE with the large front grill. And as you say, the easy access would be a plus. Wonder why they switched? I've seen pictures of the Elkmont with that model installed, and originally thought ours was one of them.

Heh, at least ours is screwed down. It also has a little plywood box around it. Not sure why ...

The point is it is NOT drawing thru a 55 sq in opening. ...
On April 7, 2010 I was directed by the manufacturer, Suburban, to take my trailer to one of their authorized repair centers in Tucson AZ. They took one look at it and called in another expert. Their verdict: They would not touch it, as the TM installation was totally wrong. Email I got later from Suburban:

"I did receive a call from Javier @ LaMesa RV late yesterday and he explained what they found. From discussion with them it appears that they felt that they could not perform the repairs due to the installation and that they could be held accountable if something occurred with the wiring etc.

I will contact you today for further discussion".

So we are back to square one. I strongly suspect that there are a number of other Elkmonts out there with similar problems, and that it is only a matter of time before a mishap happens. Suburban again advised us not to use the furnace until the problem has been corrected. And because TM claimed in an email to me that the installation had been approved by Suburban, they are going to the factory to monitor the installation and also to tell them that there was/is no way they would authorize such an installation.

I will now seek legal advise to see if the lemon laws can be applied here since there has been 3 attempt to correct the installation.

[cochise]

Here is what TM have had to say about the installation of furnace model NT-20S:

The furnace should have two screws into floor. Can be removed vertically with the removal of the top cover, slid sideways with the removal of the side divider, or the sofa front can be removed to slide furnace toward center of trailer.

We have not blamed Suburban for errors in installation. We have however, had the intended installation reviewed and approved by Suburban. Any deviations from the intended installation should be addressed by a dealer and will be paid for under warranty.

Intake air is provided around other gaps as well, including through bath cabinetry and around rear corners and sides of sofa seat. We have not had any issues with furnace performance in other Elkmonts.

Exhaust piping should be centered in the outside wall of the trailer to provide 3/8" gap all around. Dealer should check this issue.

Suburban vehemently denies EVER approving such an installation. As a matter of fact I was told that if anyone at Suburban deviated from written installation procedures or tried to say it was OK they would be FIRED! TM claims that return air is supplied through the gap between the front vertical seat support and the bottom of the seat. However I measured the crack and found only 1/2" clearance and when someone sits on that seat it is further depressed, decreasing the area. And if the furnace is screwed to the floor, how are you going to lift it out for maintenance? They actually laughed out loud at Suburban when they read that.

Fact is TM screwed up but will not admit it. Not until something serious happens and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration gets involved. Someone here on the Forum suggested that I write RVIA and let them know. I did. I am not awaiting their answer.

As it is installed by TM, the furnace will not/cannot perform correctly.

Well, Cochise, I have similar problems, but I'm not sure if it's a return airflow problem in my case.

First, I've had a closer look at our Elkmont's furnace and its manuals and am a bit confused. According to these manuals, our furnace is a NT-20SE. The serial # on the manual and on the furnace match. I could not find any model # on the furnace.

The problem is that the Suburban NT-20SE is supposed to have a large rectangular (~10"x10") louvered grill covering the end opposite the end with the combustion intake & exhaust pipes through which most of the heat exhausts. It also has a single, round 4" opening on the side that can be used in addition to the main grill. But ours has a blank cover instead of the grill, and the single 4" side opening is all that feeds heat to both the bathroom and living area.

By contrast, the NT-20S is not supposed to have a rectangular end grill but, I believe, *two* side 4" openings. The bryantrv.com web site has a couple of Suburban furnace manuals, one of which has a table (the upside down one on p.12) listing the NT-20S and NT-20SE clearances and duct requirements. The 20SE model has "special clearances for discharge grills", the 20S requires two 4" round ducts with a total of 25 sq in discharge area and 55 sq in of return area. There is no return area specified for the 20SE but I imagine it is the same as the 20S.

I don't see any cutouts for another 4" duct on ours, so I really do think it must be a 20SE with what is supposed to be the louvered end closed off.

Also, according to the manuals we received, the return intake for the NT20SE is through louvers in the two sides and top near the end with the combustion intake & exhaust pipes, and through the end itself when that is separated from the trailer wall. Our installation has one side covered but good access to the other side, top and end. So as long as return air can get under the setee, it can get into the furnace ok. And there do seem to be enough gaps and vents for air to get under the setee in our installation, although we would prefer that more of the return air came from the bedroom area than the dining area. This would improve circulation and reduce re-heating of already heated air.


So our heating problem seems to be inadequate discharge vent area and inefficient recirculation. It seems to me that the discharge vent area should be at least what the NT-20S requires, two 4" vents or 25 sq in. And the ~10"x10' louvered grill of the NT-20SE probably has more ... closer to 50 sq in.

I'll be contacting Trailmanor about this next week. We'll see what they say.

Oh, and the furnace was not screwed to the floor after all. But they had boxed it in sufficiently to make it tight. Still ...