Could I Please Ask a Favor of Someone....

[Bob&Joyce]

I have a 2008 3124KS that had some (very unfortunate) under the kitchen sink plumbing modifications done by an RV service shop when I asked them to install a siphon type winterizing kit. The kit was not installed at all as I requested and in the process they cut and removed some of the PEX pipe and replaced it with white drinking water hose and hose clamps. Plus, they moved the pump to allow room for the fittings they added. Needless to say, I was livid when I saw what they had done, but the damage was already inflicted on my poor TM.

Over this summer of using the camper, a couple of leaks have developed in the modifications and I do not want these people to ever touch my TM again; so I'm going to try and restore the plumbing to the way it left the factory. I've never done any plumbing work at all, so I don't know if I'm getting in over my head or not.

Anyway, here's the favor. Since the mods are already made, I do not know how the tubing and couplings should be run or installed.

Is it possible that someone has a picture of the under sink plumbing or might be willing to shoot a couple of images showing the details of the under sink plumbing. I'd like to use it as a guide to be sure I put things back right.

Also, does anyone know the size of the PEX and the type of quick disconnect fittings they use, how to work with them (install and remove), any tools I should get, and where I can get them. Home Depot??

I'd also like someone's opinion of whether or not a non-plumber type person can do this, or if I'm fixing to open a can I don't want to open. I could take it to another shop, but don't exactly know how to tell them what needs to be replaced and how.

One of my leaks is at a hose clamp where the *^%#(*#@#'s added the garden hose, and tightening it does not stop the leak. The other is at one of the quick disconnect couplers.

Thanks for any and all help.

[davlin]

Bob & Joyce,

So sorry for your experience! It's all fixable, but you may not want to do it yourself, depending upon your comfort level with all that will be necessary. To fix the "hack job," you will first need to remove the water heater http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ad.php?t=15311

That's probably what got the first guy in trouble; he tried to take "shortcuts" that led to sloppy repair.

The PEX you asked about is 1/2". There are three different types of fittings for PEX, crimp, clamp, and "Sharkbite." I strongly recommend the latter if you're going to do this yourself. They are very easy to work with, can be re-used, and their initial expense is somewhat offset by not having to buy special purpose tools to do crimp or clamp.

It would help a bunch if you could get under the sink and take as many clear pictures as you can and post them to this thread. That way, those of us that have played with TM plumbing can know what you're up against.

Dave

[davlin]

I thought I would also show you and example of a Sharkbite repair under the sink of a 3124KS. Sometimes just seeing what that looks like can make you feel better about what was done to yours. This picture presents "sideways," but I think you get the idea....

Dave

[Bill]

You definitely need pictures of a 3124KS. All TM models are different, I suspect, and pictures of my 2720, for example, would be of no help.

Assuming that your plumbing is under the sink, the very first step is to remove the cabinet doors, as well as the mullion (vertical piece) between them. Easy to remove - take the screws out of the frame, not the doors - easy to replace later, and vastly increases your access.

Next thing. In my 2720, access under the sink is severely limted by the big black drain pipes that serve the kitchen sink and the bathroom sink. Good news! Many of these pipes have hand-tightened joint fittings. You can simply unscrew the fittings that hold the joints together, and remove big pieces of pipe and pipe assembly. Getting these out of the way also increases access room.

Piping is a mix of PEX (gray) and PVC (white), and is almost certainly 1/2" size. (Someone help me out here - is some of it smaller, like 3/8"?) For purposes of kitchen plumbing, PEX and PVC are pretty much interchangeable, the difference being that if you don't drain the water out of them before winter, both will freeze but only PVC will break. Fortunately, it is easy to make the system gravity-drain, so this does not have to be a problem.

The quick connects are undoubtedly SharkBites, mentioned earlier, which work with either PEX or PVC. You won't like the price, but they are very easy to work with. It should be noted that in many cases, you can pre-cut and preassemble some of the PVC piping, and solvent-weld pieces together to make installation easier. This keeps cost way down, and it can be easier in a cramped space to insert a pre-built assembly than a handful of individual pipes and connectors.

The really sad part is that there is no need for a winterizing kit in a TM. As part of your rebuild, you don't have to try to reinstall it, which will simplify things. Here on the forum, just use the Search tool on the word "winterize" to find lots of discussion.

By the way, you asked for photos of the way the pipes are routed. This is good, and this is helful, but a schematic plumbing diagram like this one
http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...&pictureid=435
is also a very good idea. In fact, this one might be directly applicable to your trailer. It helps you understand what is supposed to be connected to what, and why, even though it doesn't show you how to route the pipes to get there.

Good luck. It will be a slow and frustrating process, but it can be done.

Bill

[Bill]

Originally Posted by davlin

This picture presents "sideways," but I think you get the idea....

Dave

Dave - I rotated and resized your picture. It takes only as moment, and in my opinion makes things a lot easier to comprehend. Hope you don't mind.

Bill

[ThePair]

As an alternative to sharkbites, look at: http://www.iplumb.tv

I used Flair-it to build the "Ultimate Water Transfer Bridge" and it works fine (search for that thread for more details). Flair-it is equivalent to sharkbite, a little more effort to screw on, but quite a bit less expensive. Still no need for a special tool, which is why I ended up using it.

If you're going to rebuild your plumbing, you may seriously want to consider incorporating the Bridge in the process. Those that have put it in seem to universally like it, and with all the plumbing out it'll be a cakewalk to install.

[ShrimpBurrito]

Originally Posted by ThePair

If you're going to rebuild your plumbing, you may seriously want to consider incorporating the Bridge in the process. Those that have put it in seem to universally like it, and with all the plumbing out it'll be a cakewalk to install.

I was just going to suggest the exact same thing. Highly recommended, especially if you're going to redo all the plumbing anyway.

Dave

[Bob&Joyce]

Many, Many Thanks to you all for answering my post. I will shoot some pictures of the plumbing and post them. The quick connects I have definitely do not look like the Sharkbite that Davlin posted. From the research I've done on the subject of PEX and fittings, these seem to be made by Watts, but there are likely many others that make similar connectors. I'll get pictures up tomorrow.

There is one thing I'm very curious about. I keep reading where you guys say a winterizing kit is not needed in a TM. Maybe I had an unusual experience, but in my previous TM (a 2007 2720SL) over the winter of 2010 and 2011, I had drained the pipes and added antifreeze to the drains. No pipes burst, but sometime during the winter, the little round cap on the top of the kitchen sink faucet froze and cracked off the faucet. My outside shower box froze and the hose attachment cracked off in the back of the box, and my bathtub faucet cracked where the hose attaches. This all happened in an Alabama winter. It cost me over two hundred dollars to repair all the damage from the winter freeze. And this was after I had drained the pipes and followed the instructions in the TM manual to winterize.

Did I do something wrong?? Not sure why I had such different results than you all, but I figured having antifreeze in the pipes and faucets is cheap insurance compared to all the repairs I had to have done. So that was my reason for wanting to add the winterizing kit.


Again, I'm so grateful for the help available through this great forum.

[Bill]

Bob & Joyce -

I'm sorry (and surprised) to hear about your freeze problems. There is, of course, nothing wrong with filling the system with anti-freeze to prevent it.

Wherever something freezes and breaks, it means that water was left in that location. To drain the places you mentioned, you have to open all the valves and faucets in the entire TM, and leave them open. If you open them, drain them, and then close them, residual water will collect at the valve location. Open the valves (4 of them) under the TM. Turn on all the faucets - two in the kitchen, two in the bathroom sink, two in the tub, and two in the outdoor shower. Leave them open. You must also remove the sprayers from the hoses (indoor and outdoor shower, plus kitchen sprayer if you have one), shake them out, and set them aside until spring. Stretch out the hoses and drain them. Having done all that, run the water pump for a few seconds (not more) to clear it.

Some folks hook up a compressor to the water fill port and run compressed air (pressure not more than about 40 psi) into the sytem to blow out any remaining water. Nothing wrong with this. I have never done it, and I have never had a freeze, but maybe I was lucky.

At any rate, the TM was designed to be gravity drained, as the manual indicates. Perhaps a previous owner messed things up?

And again, there is nothing wrong with filling the system with antifreeze each fall. As for adding a bypass kit to help this process, the usual purpose of a bypass kit is to enable you push antifreeze into all the pipes, but avoid "wasting" the 6 gallons that it takes to fill the water heater. But anti-freeze is cheap, especially if you stock up in the spring or summer. I always wonder if 6 gallons of antifreeze (well under $20) isn't cheaper than the cost (and bother) of a bypass kit.

Just my thoughts. I wish you good luck with the project. Keep us informed.

Bill

[tentcamper]

I'm sorry to hear about your freeze. The RV shop I frequency visit, was telling me in April about the unusual amount of freezing damage they have been servicing after the very cold winter. It seems more then the normal amount of people had issues here in Columbus, OH

+1 what bill said about leaving the valves and faucets open. The one thing you don't want to do is have water trapped. You want water to be able to flow when it freezes. Kinda like a milk bottle full of milk; If the cap is off, it will freeze and not break. But if the cap in on it will freeze and break.

In the last letter mailed out by TrailerBlazer to the club members in September 2014. Ed at Trailmanor wrote about winterizing and said it was also a good idea to also blow out the lines.

I follow the TM manual winterizing instructions, then I do blow out the lines. I close all the valves and faucets and hook up my compressor to the city water hose fitting. I open and close one valve and hot and cold water side of the faucets at a time and then the inside and out side shower hoses and the kitchen sink sprayer hose. I leave the valve or faucet open until it's just air with some water vapor and then close it and move on to the next valve or faucet. After blowing out the lines, I re-open all the valves and faucets. I maybe got 16 oz of water out of the lines with most of that water being from the spray hoses for the Kitchen sink and showers.

I also pump about 20 oz of antifreeze through the water pump. It more out of habit from my years of winterizing different campers. I did have a sureflo water pump freeze on a none TM camper because water was trapped in the pump after draining and blowing out the lines. It ended up cracking the plastic between the cam and the diaphragm. It did not leak, but would barely pump.

You can pour the antifreeze into to the fresh water tank or use a shurflo 90 degree fitting (234-3916) with a hose and screw it onto the pump input side and pump it straight out of the antifreeze jug. I pump it for about 5 seconds, with all the low point drains and faucets open, except the fresh water holding tank drain if you poured the antifreeze in the tank. If you poured the antifreeze in the tank, then drain the left over antifreeze out of the fresh water tank back into the antifreeze jug and leave the drain open.

I also put about 8-12 oz down each drain to protect the traps. I end up using about 1 gal every 3 years using the fitting and hose.

I'm with Bill about the water heater bypass. If I did not have an air compressor. I would drain my lines and add about 8 gal of antifreeze to the fresh water tank. I would close all valves and faucets and pump the antifreeze through the system and open one faucet at a time starting at the Kitchen hot faucet until I saw the pink antifreeze. I would continue with each faucet hot and cold and shower hoses and kitchen sink sprayer. I would, but most people don't, then drain my system and leave all valves and faucets open. Drain surplus antifreeze back into the antifreeze jug for the next year use.