SOLUTION: The ultimate fresh water transfer pump

[ShrimpBurrito]

While on a 5-week camping trip recently, I had a rare stroke of genius.

There have been a number of discussions about how to transfer fresh water from a container into the on-board fresh water tank. Among the ideas:

- a funnel, by itself or attached to an elbow and pipe
- a drill operated pump
- an electric bilge pump
- a hand pump

My solution was to use the same fresh water pump that is installed in the TM, like this one:
https://www.americanrvcompany.com/Sh...r-RV_p_39.html

...temporarily hook it onto a stirrup on the outside, run a wire under the velcro flap to plug it into the cigarette lighter, and run 2 hoses -- one into the TM water tank, the other into the portable container.

About the 20th time I was going this on our trip, I was thinking.....wouldn't it be nice if I didn't have to get the pump out and set it up every time? Why not install the pump INSIDE the TM?

Therein lies the ultimate solution.

1) install a pump like the one above into the TM, near the fresh water tank. You could also use the existing factory-installed pump and install valves on either end of the pump, but installing an additional pump makes the operation brainless.

2) a major benefit of these pumps is that they are self-priming, at least up to 6-feet. So, make a good size hole in the wall of your TM near where the pump will be, and mount a city water flange like this one:

http://www.adventurerv.net/products-...te-p-1989.html

...and connect it to the intake side of the pump. I'd mount it as close to the floor as possible, and mount the pump as close to the flange as possible. On the output side of the pump, simply tee into the 1.5" fresh water fill hose that dumps into the tank.

3) install a switch, preferably a weatherproof one accessible from the outside of the TM where you will be bringing the water jugs to.

4) make a short section of hose to connect to the city water flange; on the other end, connect a length of 3/4" PVC pipe equal to the length of your deepest water container. Hoses curl and make it difficult to pump water from the bottom of a container. I connected my pipe to the hose with a PVC union and hose barb w/pipe threads so I can easily remove it between uses, making the hose/pipe less awkward for storage.

Given that the fresh water tank is under the kitchen sink, I will have to get creative as to where I install it. But for those with their water tank under a dinette seat, installation should be a breeze.

Now transferring fresh water should be effortless. Bring the water container to the TM, connect the hose to the new water flange, flip the switch, and you're done!

Dave

You can skip cutting another hole in your TrailManor.
Also skip a new switch because you will be inside turning valves inside anyway.

My thought is to first add connector outside to fill tank thru drain.
...... See Also:
..... http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=8471
..... http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=7484
..... http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=4568
Since every RVer carries a long hose, this could be connected out to a bucket, your truck, or a fellow camper who is leaving but has surplus water, etc.


Then add three valves and two tubes INSIDE as shown in this modified drawing:

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/a...esusingpum.jpg Diagram v1

I'm assuming your TM will be up when doing this, so external valves/switches are unnessisary.
Also make your pipes loop up a foot or so to aid in draining and winterizing.
The pipe show on the left could also connect into the top "bucket fill".

To quote George Wallace “I Be Thinkin’".
Hope this helps...

Ok I be thinkin' alittle more...

You can skip the valve & pipe from the high pressure side and just run your outside shower to the gravity fill (bucket fill) port.


http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/a...pesusing-1.jpg Diagram v2



...

(We never stop thinkin')

Here is yet another thought because you have access to pipes limited your your TM model:

If you do want to run a tube out the bottom or side -
you can eliminate the valve on the tank drain (far left on picture in previous post).
Use my 2nd idea in previous post to run outside shower into bucket fill port.

Connect new outside pipe to input of water pump. (with a tight cap on outside end for normal TM use)

You will only need the one valve now -between output of the tank and input of pump.
This also means only one pipe to cut inside to add valve and new pipe end.

Finally learning to use MS Paint:
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/a...pesusing-2.jpg Diagram v3

..

[Bill]

Why you clever dog - I love it. The price of a new pump will slow me down a bit, but maybe I can salvage one somewhere. As you point out, the cramped space around the tank and pipes in a 2720SL will limit the amount of creative piping-and-valving I will choose to do. But I have to admit, I have been getting tired of stroking my old bilge pump.

Bill

Bill,
Quote: "The price of a new pump will slow me down a bit"

My point was to use the EXISTING pump in the TM and not have to buy and bring another pump.
Maybe I misunderstood and you are just saying your onboard pump is bad?

[ThePair]

I have to assume you're using some kind of tubing to hook up the outside shower hose to the tank fill/inlet port. What have you found that works, or is this all a thought experiment right now (which I love, BTW)

I'm still looking for a solution, as my current one leaves a lot to be desired Utilizing the existing pump sounds quite nice, I'm just thinking that, perhaps, running a short internal hose might not be better than trying to rig something up to the outside shower (involving removal of the shower handle to use, etc). It would be a little more like your first plan for that portion of it, but use-wise and installation-wise it seems like a little less hassle?

Since the city water fill pipe has a cap on its end, and I have never had anything come out of my "vent pipe" in the water tank -- in fact it's not even connected to the outside properly, just floats near the vent screen -- I'm thinking that hooking that little hose directly to the city pipe with a valve would work. The pump would fill the tank through that air vent hose just fine, and if you were filling the tank the "normal" way, you could just open the city port to vent air, if needed.

Looking under the sink on my 2720SL, even with the tight fit, I think that wouldn't be too difficult to manage.

I think this is an incredibly clever line of thought. With a little more imagination, one could conceive of using the city port for the fill connection, rather than drilling a new port, and diverting the water from there through the pump and then back up to the tank in a retrograde fashion.

If one could find a compatible 4-way crossover switching valve, this could be done with a minimum of fuss. Just install it between the city fill line and the pump intake, and a simple twist would make it all work.

So that begs the question: anyone know of such a beast? The only thing I've found so far is: http://www.evsco.com/4-way.htm utilizing a "double L crossover" pattern. Assuming the polypropylene is considered safe for drinking water, this would then allow a simple installation, labeling the 4 ports as such:

A. City inlet
B. Tube formerly connecting A to the high-pressure side of the system (i.e. pump outlet)
C. Output line from water tank
D. Input line to pump.

In the stock TM, A & B are connected as one tube, as are C & D. This valve would, with a twist, swap the connections so A & D are connected, as well as B & C. Thus, water would come in through the city connector, into the pump, out into the high pressure system, and then dump via B into C, which leads to filling the water tank. Once filled, a simple 90 degree twist would set things back to normal operations. This carries with it the simplicity of a single twist on one valve to convert from one function to the other, and it makes it more or less foolproof, since you can't forget to open/close all the needed valves to switch modes. It's either normal mode, or fill mode.

Anyone think that would work?

ShrimpBurrito, I hope I'm not hijacking your thread. You got me really thinking. A rare event.
Rereading your first post - adding the extra pump should work just fine. But I'm working on skipping the extra pump and wire.
quote: "You could also use the existing factory-installed pump and install valves on either end of the pump..."
I think that started me.
quote: "connect a length of 3/4" PVC pipe equal to the length of your deepest water container. Hoses curl and ..."
Great idea.

ThePair,
Yes I started as a thought experiment but remembering my first TM campout last year...
My water hose was 25' the hookup was 45' away. I had to fill a bucket with water and try to pour sideways into TM tank. ( no funnel to help).
My TM is 1000 miles away now but next month I'll be back doing some of these modifications so my TM will be ready for anything.

Love your idea of a single valve. Evsco even allows you to Stack Valves so a single handle turn operates many valves.
I haven't been able to find their prices.
My latest all internal plan uses just two valves (Y valve and a shut off valve). Cheap and very available.

Latest plan - using the hi-pressure garden hose connection as connection to suck water from bucket.
This is already on the side of our TMs with threaded connector. Thanks ThePair for idea leading me in this direction.
This drawing is for all internal valves/connections.
T=new T connector Y=Y valve or 3-way valve S=shut off valve
Z=move one way valve over here, or if you can't move it then be sure to add another one way valve
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/a...nkVersion4.jpg Diagram v4


Sample of: Y valve / By-Pass 3-Way Valve Replacement for RV Water Heater Tank http://www.amazon.com/Camco-37463-Su.../dp/B000EDQQCE
Sample of: One way valve / RV City Water Check Valve http://www.rvtruckparts.com/ProductD...ID=192&CID=777


In Diagram v4 above... you could skip the lower tube, shut off valve and 2 T-connectors. Then do the following:

Regarding using the outside shower thought from previous threads: Any faucet or shower head could be extended back to the fill port.
If you add garden hose connections to your left 2 drains:
"Filling Water Tank In Down/Folded/Closed Position AND Filling HOT WATER HEATER http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ad.php?t=10461 "
then outside you can temporarily connect a short garden hose from high pressure drain upto the gravity/bucket fill port.



On a slightly different track... You can skip parts from high-pressure side of pump to the onboard tank.
Ignore the onboard tank.
Just leave bucket by TM and suck water from bucket directly to pump and then to all faucets/showers/waterheater as needed.

.

[ThePair]

Yes...I see what you mean. Then it would just be a matter of a short hose between the two outlets/drains (would need something that wouldn't kink, naturally ), and the one internal "upper" hose with the three-way valve on the end.

Clever.

[ShrimpBurrito]

Thanks for all the responses. I think we're on to something here.

Paul / LiveTicker - Some of the things you mentioned, like the threads you refer to, talk about loading water into the TM using a pressurized source. I'm talking specifically about loading water from a non-pressurized source, like a 5 gallon jug. I wouldn't be doing this at home, but out in the boonies where I have to drive a few miles to get water and bring it back to camp.

I like your ideas with the valves, but I'm trying to stay away from valves if I can. In my 2720SL, there is barely enough room to shine any light under the sink where the water tank, pump, water heater, and accumulator all reside. Not only would having a valve-free solution be simpler to operate, it would also mean I don't have to enter this dungeon every time I want to load more water. I definitely do not want an electrically actuated valve. Way too much hassle and expense and it's just another thing to break.

Bill - Glad you like the idea! You might be able to get a pump of a different brand for less.....one feature on these pumps is the pressure switch, and obviously that is not required for this application. Perhaps one that does would be a bit cheaper. You definitely want to be sure whatever pump you do buy is self-priming though and is safe for potable water.

Here is the same above above for $63 delivered (the one above charged more for shipping):
http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-2088-4.../dp/B0006GK5NA

The one above is 2.8 gallons/min, and I personally wouldn't want to go any slower. But if you want to save a few bucks, this 1 GPM pump is $45 delivered....it doesn't have a pressure switch, but I would want to confirm that it is self-priming:

http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-100-00.../dp/B00074QU6C

ThePair - The outside shower hose or plumbing is not utilized at all in my current method in loading water. In fact, I do not even have an outdoor shower. I use an additional Shurflo pump, identical to the factory installed one, and simply connect to the pump two 3-foot lengths of hose I bought from the hardware store. One hose goes in the water container, the other hose goes into the fresh water tank fill hole. I connected a cigarette plug to the power wire for the pump, and with the pump outside, I snake the wire under the velcro flap and plug it into the socket where the antenna pre-amp is on the fridge wall.

You'll want to be sure your vent hose is connected. If you overfill your water tank, water will eventually start coming out that hose....and it sounds like the way yours is now, it will make a mess under your sink.

I took a look under the sink yesterday afternoon after starting this thread, and I don't see a good spot to install a new city water flange. Looking under the sink, the water tank fill and existing city water flange are one on top of the other on the right in the space above the tank. Directly to the left of that is the water pump, and to the left of that is the water heater. There is some free space UNDER the water heater, in between it and the floor, but my guess is there is framing in that space to support to water heater. But even if there isn't, because there is such a small space in between the water heater and the edge of where the flange would go, I don't think that's a good place. I don't want to weaken any support for the water heater.

So for us lucky 2720SL owners, I think more creativity is required. A few ideas:

1) run the pump inlet through the floor, and the connect an elbow under the trailer to run it to the side of the trailer. So far, this is my preferred solution.

2) use the existing city water flange -- use a Y to connect the inlet, and a check valve (which requires no actuation) to prevent the aux pump from sucking water out of the TM plumbing when you are loading water. On the other hand, perhaps no check valve is needed. If all the faucets are closed, no air can enter the lines, and the pump will instead be pumping water from the water container.

In any event, the problem with this solution is that when you connect pressurized water to that flange, I think it will go right through the pump, and you will start filling your water tank. I may call Shurflo or experiment to confirm. EDIT: I just talked with a tech at Shurflo, and confirmed that the water would go right through.

Need to think about this more......I'm not sure how to fix this without a manual valve.

3) remove the existing fresh water fill flange and replace it with a new city water flange to connect to the aux pump. To fill the water tank from a pressurized source, connect a hose thread adapter to the drain under the trailer. This won't work for me because my drain tube is pinched by the tank, severely restricting flow. I can't fix this without making a new hole for the drain, as the tank is already over towards the fridge as far as it can go.

Dave