Replacing WFCO converter

[jola1925]

Hello, our converter seems to have failed on our 2012 2720. I tested with a MM & ran shore power while disconnected from batteries & no DC or battery being charged, while AC is showing 119 volts.

I would like to replace the converter with an eye towards upgrading to lithium batteries & solar, from dual 6v AGMs. Current/dead converter is the WFCO 8955

I would like to be able to:

• install a single lithium battery 230-330ah - soon
• Install 400-800 of solar - further down the road

My questions are?

• Which Progressive Dynamics Inc converter should I look at?
• Is the battery amp hour reasonable for moderate boondocking & future solar set-up? -I know this is vague.
• Will I need a DC-DC charger? What amp size?
• Will I need to change the power cable size (s)?

Is there anything else I should be considering? I know I still need to do the math on amp hr. usage.

Thank you for any thoughts/input

[Wavery]

1st question...... Do you intend to install an inverter (changes your 12V DC battery current to 115v AC house current)?

When shopping for your PD converter/charger, be sure to get one with "Charge Wizard". This is very important with LFP battery as it allows you to charge your battery at full current (say 55A) until the battery is full as apposed to "3 stage charging) which is for lead acid batteries.

I have a 230ah lithium battery and it is adequate for ALL of our needs. We have a 2000W inverter and our 2720SL TM had 400W of solar. We found that combination to work quite well for moderate boondocking (up to week). It will not run the A/C. That is something (in my opinion) is not reasonable on a TM. For that, we carry a generator.

We could run our 115v microwave oven up to 5 (accumulated) minutes per day and our 115v coffee pot twice a day. All 12v needs were never even a concern, as far as conserving.

When you install your new converter/charger, you will need to upgrade the DC wiring going from the new charger to the converter power center to 8awg (6awg is better) all copper wire because the charger will be putting out a constant 55a as apposed to the constant 10-15a with an initial surge of ~45a for ~10 minutes or less. If you use the existing wires, you will have an overheating situation. Your LFP battery will charge 5x faster.

If you plan to install an inverter at some point, come back and ask for more instructions. Either way, I think that you will find 230ah LiFeP04 battery to be plenty adequate.

You should not need a DC/DC charger once that you have solar. If you want to charge your battery from the tow vehicle without having solar on the camper, you wll need a DC/DC charger.

[jola1925]

Wavery, thank you for the information. I do not plan on solar just yet, so an inverter can wait. I have a question about this:
When you install your new converter/charger, you will need to upgrade the DC wiring going from the new charger to the converter power center...

Are you talking about the 5 wires coming out of the converter (red,white(2),green,black) ?

If so, are we talking soldering new wires to a new converter?

Thank you

[rickst29]

And the "store" to buy it from is bestconverter.com (Randy). Even Progressive Dynamics support persons use his online store to reference their own products easily. Be aware that there are lots of fraudulent sellers elsewhere.

Here is the order page" https://www.bestconverter.com/PD-465...nt-_p_676.html

The pendant (which I have) is useful for most battery types, but not for LFP batteries. The new models, when you set the push-in 'battery type' switch (a DP switch) to control "Lithium" batteries, use a constant 14.4 volt power setting at all times.

Older ones (including mine) used to push 14.6 volts in "Lithium" mode, that was a bit too much. But you use BMS on the battery packs to prevent overcharging. When you have cellphone-controllable BMS units, as I do, you can even change your "battery full" limit from around 14.0 volts (3.500 volts per cell, a value which fill the cells to about 99% capacity) down to about 13.10 volts during storage times longer than a week. (That's only 3.275 volts per cell, around 60% of capacity -- and helps the batteries last much longer.)

[rickst29]

Wavery's post contains lots of information about "too small'" wires and fuses, but some was with relation to adding an Inverter, and his warning about the PD replacement Converters - they ARE capable of creating more than 55A of DC output current for extended periods of time - was a bit unclear.

The original Converter Board (WFCO) claimed to be capable of "55 amps" output current, but it couldn't run more than 30 Amps for even two seconds. WFCO connected it to a 30 Amp fuse. With a PD Converter Board replacing the WFCO Converter board, that fuse is likely to blow frequently -- especially with charging Lithium Batteries.

Nearly all "+12 Volt DC" in an unmodified TM are terminated at the DC fuse board, in the upper rigfht side of the WFCO unit. One the left of the fuse board (looking at the front of the WFCO, from the hallway), just two bigger "power ports" on the left side have fuses with size 30A, while a verticval row of smaller fuses supports "loads " along the right side.

In original TM wiring, one of those 30A "power ports" connected to the 12V battery + terminal wire. The other connected the Converter's "+12v" output wire.

In an "original" configuration with a 55A PD Converter on one 30A port, and Lithium batteries capable of "accepting" very high charging current on the other "30A port, both fuses are likely to fail. The "power ports" cannot accept wire bigger than 8-AWG, that's capable of only 40A. The fuse slot for those ports accepts only "ATC+ style fuses, and the legs on those fuses are not capable handling more than 40A current either.

If you raise the wire size to 8-AWG, it is possible to upgrade the fuses from "30A" to "40A" each. But that is not enough top handle 55A of current, and routing the 8-AWG wires into the power port slots is difficult.

Although the PD Converter "output wires are small in size, they support high current. The PD "excuse" is that the wires are short, more like "chassis wiring" inside a fuse box than than home wiring. In any case, the small PD output wires "+12v" and ground "-" need to be connected to battery lugs using much larger wires, and the "12V" pair needs at least one (and maybe 2) additional wires to provide "12v" power to the WFCO fuse board "pwer ports.

Wavery and I (and a few other people) have added a fully insulated 4-way "power disribution" junction box behind the WFCO, connecting lthe "12v" converter output wire with a much larger "battery 12v wire", while also brining two smaller 12-VDC wires forward (into the WFCO box ) to connect into the WFCO fuse board's left side "power ports".

In re-wiring that way, the PD Converter "output 12V" wire reach the battery "12v" supply wire within the junction, never going through the WFCO fuse board at all. The only power into the WFCO "power ports" is power need to run the 12v loads which are downstream from the smaller fuses, and there are now two ports to support that (with somewhat more than 60A of maximum capability combined).

- - -
However, in the next few days, I plan to completely remove my old WFCO power center -primarily due to limitation of the DC fuse board. It is difficult to make wire actually reach into the two "power ports" along the left, and with ATC fuses -- they're just not good for higher powered connections.

I'm replacing my current setup of "12-v" power distribution (the WFCO fuse board, plus two "power distribution junction boxes, plus a few extrernal fuses) with higher-power mega-fuse fuse blocks. Each fully insulated "block" supports 4 separately used downstream ports, to/from a group of 3 larger "upstream" ports.

I think that two of these "blocks" can freplace the WFCO fuse board, with a third block handling connections near my battery storage area. "Mega" fuses support a much wider range of current limits, from 5A up to nearly 100A each.

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by jola1925

Wavery, thank you for the information. I do not plan on solar just yet, so an inverter can wait. I have a question about this:
When you install your new converter/charger, you will need to upgrade the DC wiring going from the new charger to the converter power center...

Are you talking about the 5 wires coming out of the converter (red,white(2),green,black) ?

If so, are we talking soldering new wires to a new converter?

Thank you

I should have been more clear about the wiring part. My main point was, if you are going to upgrade to lithium, it's best to upgrade the output of the charger to 8G (6G is better). That will allow full output of the charger for ultimate battery charging without overheating the original wires. All of the PD chargers that I got only had an empty positive and negative DC port that was capable of accepting 6G wire (or smaller). You insert your 6G wire into the empty port and clamp down on the wire with an allen wrench. If you use 6G wire, will will need to get 6G lugs and a crimper for 6G wire.

When I wired my charger, I ran 6g wire back to my battery's positive and negative busbar (essentially directly back to the battery). I then ran the original 10G wire from the the power center's back to the battery busbars to power the the DC part of the converter's power board.

That solved the problem of over amping the power center and blowing the 40A fuses. The power center doesn't care whether it gets it's 12v current directly from the charger or if it gets it from the battery. The fuses do care if the power center is getting 55A directly through it, on it's way back to the battery.

I hope that makes sense. I've wire 4 TMs, 3, motorhomes, a large cargo trailer/workshop and my current TM travel trailer that way and it works perfectly.

Maybe this quick drawing might help.

[jola1925]

Thanks for the info. This is all new to me & is starting to feel like a rabbit hole.

Does this mean that the cables that currently connect/power my AGMs will need to be replaced by heavier gauge wire? (from the power center all the way to battery)?

Finally, any thoughts on this PD converter: https://www.progressivedyn.com/pd9300/
&
A good RV electrician in Eastern Los Angeles County. I can do some work but I lack electrical know how.

Thanks,

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by jola1925

Thanks for the info. This is all new to me & is starting to feel like a rabbit hole.

Does this mean that the cables that currently connect/power my AGMs will need to be replaced by heavier gauge wire? (from the power center all the way to battery)?

Finally, any thoughts on this PD converter: https://www.progressivedyn.com/pd9300/
&
A good RV electrician in Eastern Los Angeles County. I can do some work but I lack electrical know how.

Thanks,

Did you see the diagram above?

You will need to change the cables from the Converter's charger (that you will be replacing with a PD charger). Your current cables will not handle the charging amperage. They will get hot and could catch on fire. However, you can still use your current cables to go from the battery to your power center, to run hour house 12v system.

I highly suggest that you add busbars and fuses. The busbars act as a media station. Your battery hooks up to one end of the busbars ( pos & neg). Now, your busbars act as your battery terminal distribution center and you can add all of your "Stuff" to the other terminals on the busbars instead of piling a bunch of terminal on your battery (which can be bad). Be sure that there is a 30 amp fuse to your 10g wire going from the busbar (used to go to the battery) to the power center.

Now, you will have to add a 60amp fuse in the 6G wire going from your new PD charger to the positive bus bar. There's a link below.

https://www.amazon.com/BOJACK-Clear-...89&sr=8-7&th=1

This is the 6G wire that you'll want:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CBX8KLVC...roduct_details

You will also need wire end "lugs" for the 6G wire and a tool to crimp the lugs.

https://www.amazon.com/TKDMR-10pcs-A...8R6YK1LJ&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...e?ie=UTF8&th=1

Here are some busbars... also known as "distribution blocks"
https://www.amazon.com/Joinfworld-Di...lbWF0aWM&psc=1

So..... there's about $100 worth of stuff to do the job right and in the future, you won't have to reinvent the wheel to add solar, inverter or any other 12V items that you want to add. Just wire them to the busbars and if you need to make more cables, you'll have a cable crimper. If you want to get a better quality cable crimper, you can get a hydraulic one for around $100. For what you're doing, the one that I posted should do a fine job.

[jola1925]

Thank you for your help.

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by jola1925

Thanks for the info. This is all new to me & is starting to feel like a rabbit hole.

Does this mean that the cables that currently connect/power my AGMs will need to be replaced by heavier gauge wire? (from the power center all the way to battery)?

Finally, any thoughts on this PD converter: https://www.progressivedyn.com/pd9300/
&
A good RV electrician in Eastern Los Angeles County. I can do some work but I lack electrical know how.

Thanks,

With PD Converter output voltage limited (by the factory) to either 14.4 volts or 14.6 volts, your AGM batteries will not accept "too much" charger current. That is because Lead-Acid batteries, including AGMs, present high 'internal resistance' while being charged from a power source at higher voltage.

Until you switch to a LFP battery pack, you can leave the pair of 30A fuses involved unchanged (i.e., the one installed in the WFCO fuse board, the other installed in the long "12V battery terminal" wire just before the battery terminal.) You need to install the PD Upgrade right away, but the battery switch can probably wait a while.
- - -
The '9300' model Converter is built into a larger box than the '4600' upgrade model. The 4600 Upgrade fits into the lower section of your current WFCO "outer plaastic box" almost perfectly, while the 9300 would need to be mounted in a new and different location. The ONLY issue with 4600 upgrade in the WFCO box is eventual rerouting of "12v" and "grounding" output wires, when you acquire batteries which can be charged ast more than 30A continuous power.