Vehicle Weight Ratings

[Wavery]

This issue is danced around in several threads but I thought that it might be helpful to have a thread that directly addresses the issue of weight ratings, what they mean and how they pertain to your vehicle when towing.

There are several ratings that anyone that is going to tow should know.

Here is a list of the ratings that come to mind that everyone should know and understand:

GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating) -
The manufacturers maximum load weight, in pounds, allowed for the trailer and tow vehicle. This rating includes the total weight of the trailer and tow vehicle plus fuel, water, propane, supplies and passengers. (this will be the hardest and most crucial rating to ascertain).

GVRW (gross vehicle weight rating) -
The maximum a vehicle can safely weigh when loaded, including the vehicle itself, occupants, cargo and optional equipment (including trailer tongue weight on the TV).

Curb Weight
The weight of the vehicle including standard equipment and all fluids. It does not include passengers, cargo or optional equipment.

GAWR (Front/Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating)
The maximum safe load carrying capacity of the front/rear axle system (axle, suspension, wheels & tires) as specified by the manufacturer. Whichever component is the weakest in the system will determine the maximum GAWR.

Trailer Towing Capacity
The maximum weight of a loaded trailer that the vehicle, as equipped, is rated to tow. This assumes that only the driver (68 kg / 150 lbs) and no extra cargo (incl fuel) is in the tow vehicle.


These are each important figures that has safety, legal and insurance related implications for every RVer.

It is important to understand that none of these ratings can be exceeded, either individually or collectively. You can't pick and choose which rating that you want to use. These ratings are legal ratings and can be used against a person in a court of law when determining the fault of an accident and any possible criminal negligence. It will also be used by insurance companies to accept or deny coverage (especially in the event of an injury or death).

To figure your tow vehicles ability to tow, use the following formula:

GCVWR - GVWR (tow vehicle) = the maximum amount that you might be able to tow. You may be able to add to this by carrying less in the TV as long as you don't exceed the GVWR of the trailer.

You must not exceed any of the other ratings, like....tow rating or GAWR (front or rear). You must also not exceed the maximum tongue weight rating for the hitch.

You will notice that there is no mention of HP, torque or cooling capacity. These things are consumer responsibility and are not mandated by law.

The basic principal is that a vehicle must be able to stop within a certain distance (Usually 190' I think) @55MPH. This will vary by state but the reason for the principal is obvious.

I may have left something out or others may want to correct this. That is why I started this thread. Please feel free to disagree with any of my statements. I am not an attorney and I don't claim to be giving legal advice here.

Originally Posted by harveyrv

GVRW (gross combined vehicle weight rating) -
The maximum a vehicle can safely weigh when loaded, including the vehicle itself, occupants, cargo and optional equipment.

Carolyn and Wayne, this is a very informative post and covers a lot of material that owners and potential owners should know.

But may I add something to the GVWR part??. The tongue weight (and adjusted tongue weight if using a WDH) is another thing that needs to be added to the total load of the TV.

Thanks for a great post.

Chap

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by mtnguy

Carolyn and Wayne, this is a very informative post and covers a lot of material that owners and potential owners should know.

But may I add something to the GVWR part??. The tongue weight (and adjusted tongue weight if using a WDH) is another thing that needs to be added to the total load of the TV.

Thanks for a great post.

Chap

That's correct and the GAWR needs to be looked at also. None of the vehicles or equipment ratings can be exceeded.

A WDH should not be taken lightly. If you exceed the front GAWR by using this devise, the result could be damaged suspension parts. A lot of people don't understand or figure in the stress that a WDH places on the TV.

Anything short of taking your total tow package to the scales, fully loaded, is guessing.

Originally Posted by harveyrv

Anything short of taking your total tow package to the scales, fully loaded, is guessing.

In my case, towing a 4100 pound TM with a GMC 2500HD crew cab truck, I am pretty darn sure that I am within limits. This truck is frequently used to tow 8000+ pound fifth wheels.

I did weight it once when I was till using my Chevy 1500HD and it was 3300 pounds on each of the three axles, plus or minus 100 pounds. I was surprised how even the load was spread across all axles.

I switched to the 2500HD from a 1500HD because after 3.5 years I finally managed to accumulate enough stuff that the tongue was sagging. I added a 300 pound motorcycle to the bed of the truck. It will be even more interesting when I load the 800 pound ATV instead of the motorcycle.

I might weigh it again with the ATV.

I figure I carry around 2000 pounds of stuff now. Some in the TM, some in the truck. Isn't it amazing how much 10 cases of cold drinks weighs?

Nice post. Short and simple.

[Bill]

HarveyRV stated

None of the vehicles or equipment ratings can be exceeded.

That's certainly correct, as far as it goes. But just because the ratings are not exceeded doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good tow vehicle for your load.

The thing that continues to bother me about this whole issue is that some people talk tow ratings, some people talk GVWR, GCWR, and all the other numbers. But seldom does anyone ask "Where are you going to tow?" It should be clear that if your towing will be restricted to Florida or the midwest, then meeting the numbers may be both adequate and safe. But if you are going to climb into the Rockies or the Sierras, or even some parts of the Appalachians, then that same vehicle will be neither adequate nor safe, no matter what the numbers tell you. The altitude and grade (both uphill and downhill) that you ask your tow vehicle to conquer are extremely important.

And adequate means more than "I can maintain 40 mph on a modest upgrade if I downshift 2 or 3 times and mash the accelerator." It also means not beating your car to death. As an example, my Explorer is rated for over 7000 pounds of trailer weight, so a 3500-pound TM is certainly well within the numeric limits, no matter how you figure them. And Iowa/Illinois/Indiana/Kansas are a breeze. But we often travel I-25 at the Colorado / New Mexico border. At the border is Raton Pass. Not particularly dramatic like the approaches to the Eisenhower Tunnel in Colorado. But about 8000 feet of elevation and about 5 miles of 6% grade on either side. How high do you think the tranny temp rises as we go over that gentle pass with the TM behind? I didn't know, and I bet you don't either, because no production car that I know of, including my Explorer, has a transmission temperature gauge. I installed one, specifically to watch this situation. And even with my vehicle, the tranny temp rises to about 210 degrees. That is not catastrophic, but it is far above normal. And I keep thinking, if my vehicle were rated 3500 pounds instead of 7000 pounds, what would the tranny temp be? All I know is that I don't want to find out.

If you don't have a tranny gauge, you'll never know, no matter where you drive.

Some people say I am "truck obsessed", apparently thinking that the Explorer is a truck. Whatever your feeling, I don't want my transmission to die a death that is both expensive and premature, just because I set my goals at some minimum numbers. And I don't want to sound argumentative about it, because it just makes sense. IMO, a tranny temperature gauge is one of the best ways to get a real handle on how hard your vehicle is being stressed.

As they say, YMMV. And please don't take this as a rant. I just can't figure out why people concentrate on the numbers, and never consider the WHERE of towing. It is certainly not less important than the numbers.

Bill

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by Bill

HarveyRV stated That's certainly correct, as far as it goes. But just because the ratings are not exceeded doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good tow vehicle for your load.

The thing that continues to bother me about this whole issue is that some people talk tow ratings, some people talk GVWR, GCWR, and all the other numbers. But seldom does anyone ask "Where are you going to tow?" It should be clear that if your towing will be restricted to Florida or the midwest, then meeting the numbers may be both adequate and safe. But if you are going to climb into the Rockies or the Sierras, or even some parts of the Appalachians, then that same vehicle will be neither adequate nor safe, no matter what the numbers tell you. The altitude and grade (both uphill and downhill) that you ask your tow vehicle to conquer are extremely important.

And adequate means more than "I can maintain 40 mph on a modest upgrade if I downshift 2 or 3 times and mash the accelerator." It also means not beating your car to death. As an example, my Explorer is rated for over 7000 pounds of trailer weight, so a 3500-pound TM is certainly well within the numeric limits, no matter how you figure them. And Iowa/Illinois/Indiana/Kansas are a breeze. But we often travel I-25 at the Colorado / New Mexico border. At the border is Raton Pass, about 8000 feet of elevation and about 5 miles of 6% grade on either side. How high do you think the tranny temp rises as we go over the pass with the TM behind? I didn't know, and I bet you don't either, because no production car that I know of, including my Explorer, has a transmission temperature gauge. I installed one, specifically to watch this situation. And even with my vehicle, the tranny temp rises to about 210 degrees. That is not catastrophic, but it is far above normal. And I keep thinking, if my vehicle were rated 3500 pounds instead of 7000 pounds, what would the tranny temp be? All I know is that I don't want to find out.

If you don't have a tranny gauge, you'll never know, no matter where you drive.

Some people say I am "truck obsessed", apparently thinking that the Explorer is a truck. Nonetheless, I don't want my transmission to die a death that is both expensive and premature, just because I set my goals at some minimum numbers. And I don't want to sound argumentative about it, because it just makes sense. IMO, a tranny temperature gauge is one of the best ways to get a real handle on how hard your vehicle is being stressed.

As they say, YMMV. And please don't take this as a rant. I just can't figure out why people concentrate on the numbers, and never consider the WHERE of towing. It is certainly not less important than the numbers.

Bill

Bill, your premise is absolutely correct but your reasoning is slightly off point for the purpose of this discussion. I posted this thread because a lot of people ask what is "safe and reasonable" when considering a Tow Vehicle.

The discussion is about safety. The issue that seems to be your main beef is consumer related and has to do with the ability of a vehicle to "Pull" not necessarily "Tow". Although the two are somewhat related, pulling has little to do with safety or legality and everything to do with reliability.

When I say the premise is correct, I mean that one should certainly consider terrain when figuring if it is "Safe" to tow. The TVs stopping ability is greatly challenged when driving steep terrain. Brake fade is probably one of the biggest factors in towing accidents. However, if one were to stay within the guidelines set forth by the manufacturers, you should be reasonably safe and shouldn't have to be concerned about being charged with negligent homicide or having your insurance company deny an accident claim.

A certain "Cushion" should be added for mountain driving, that's for sure. I'm a big proponent for great big tranny coolers.......and carbon metallic disc brake pads but that's material for another thread .

BTW.......HP and cooling capacity is part of the manufacturers calculation of GCVWR...

Here's an example of getting carried away:

[Bill]

Wayne -

I think we're saying the same thing. If you meet the numbers, you won't necessarily be safe from anything but a lawsuit. But if you are coming down a steep grade and lose control, that's not much consolation.

I guess I'm just discouraged that the towing question - and it comes up often - is always phrased in terms of rated towing capacity or in terms of GVWR/GCWR etc. And although the question almost never includes any indication of where the towing will take place, the poster always expects to get an ironclad unambiguous answer.

But it was always thus, and I've got to realize that I'm shoveling sand against the tide.

Bill

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by Bill

Wayne -

I think we're saying the same thing. If you meet the numbers, you won't necessarily be safe from anything but a lawsuit. But if you are coming down a steep grade and lose control, that's not much consolation.

I guess I'm just discouraged that the towing question - and it comes up often - is always phrased in terms of rated towing capacity or in terms of GVWR/GCWR etc. And although the question almost never includes any indication of where the towing will take place, the poster always expects to get an ironclad unambiguous answer.

But it was always thus, and I've got to realize that I'm shoveling sand against the tide.

Bill

I'm dissappointed........you didn't even mention the TV in the picture.....

At some point, people need to be responsible for using some common sense.

As long as one does not exceed the GCVWR for their TV, they should (in most cases) be able to negotiate mountain driving while exercising caution.

My TV is pretty maxed out on the GCVWR. It only has 180HP and I have towed pretty extensively in the mountains. I have a large trans cooler and an over-sized engine and trans oil pan on my little truck. I also use synthetic fluids (they dissipate heat much faster and can sustain higher temps without damaging the fluid). I also have carbon metallic brake pads.

Other than having to use lower gears, I've never had any issues. I do use extreme caution going down steep grades.

Where people tend to get in trouble is that they look at the vehicles tow rating and neglect to consider anything else. The vehicle tow rating is a very dangerous # because in most cases the vehicle is rated with the TV empty. Not may people go camping by themselves and no camping gear. Passengers and cargo can easily add up to thousands of pounds. Those pounds add an awful lot of inertia to a vehicle traveling at highway speeds.

IMHO, tow ratings are dangerous and should be posted with a warning like "Vehicle rated at XXXX# with no passengers and cargo". Far too many people look at a 3500# tow rating and think that they are good to tow a 3500# TM. That is hardly ever the case. It is very difficult to find any vehicles that has a 3500# tow rating that would not exceed the GCVWR when they load that vehicle and trailer with passengers and cargo. I think that TrailManor knows that and should stipulate that in their advertising. I think that their statements about "Most V6 cars can tow a TM", then supply a vehicle tow rating fact sheet are border-line negligent. In fact, they even have a picture of a Toyota Rav4 with the comment, "What do all of these top selling vehicles have in common?"......"In fact, their 3500 lb. tow rating is well above what’s needed for one of our 30-foot trailers. They can all tow a 30-foot TrailManor. Easily.".....the Rav4 has a 2000# tow rating. It says so in their own published chart.

It doesn't much matter how rapidly you can accelerate. It does matter how fast you can stop.

I once made a near panic stop while towing. I am happy to report that it felt as if I was able to stop as fast towing as I could when not towing.

My worst fear is:

driving down a paved road
rounding a blind turn
that is off camber
discovering the paved surface is covered with dirt, mud, gravel
finding cars stopped due to an accident ahead
while a deer jumps in front of me
and a tire blows

If you prepare for the worst, you will be pleasantly surprised when it does not happen.

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by PopBeavers

It doesn't much matter how rapidly you can accelerate. It does matter how fast you can stop.

I once made a near panic stop while towing. I am happy to report that it felt as if I was able to stop as fast towing as I could when not towing.

My worst fear is:

driving down a paved road
rounding a blind turn
that is off camber
discovering the paved surface is covered with dirt, mud, gravel
finding cars stopped due to an accident ahead
while a deer jumps in front of me
and a tire blows

If you prepare for the worst, you will be pleasantly surprised when it does not happen.

Well said.....