Towing TM in deep mud and muck

For Memorial day weekend we went boon docking in the Sierras. Going up highway 108 we turned left 2 miles before chains were required. The road down to the river was paved, but very twisty. About 5 miles, no problem.

Then we had 3.7 miles of dirt road, but because of the weather a lot of it was mud and muck, sometimes 6 to 8 inches deep. This is a single lane road with 4 or 5 turnouts along the way that are just big enough to pass a truck, but not a truck and trailer. If two vehicles towing trailers met head to head I'm not sure what would happen next.

It took a little over an hour to drive in, always in 4wd, sometimes in low range. Driving out the roads were dry so it only took 35 minutes in 4wd high range.

When the road was flat or uphill I had no problems towing my 2005 TM 2720. Though the truck tires are M+S, the are the factory tires and I will replace them as soon as the budget allows. Not the best for traction, but almost adequate.

The problem was the downhill sections, especially when the road was off camber, leaning towards the downhill cliff. The truck (GMC 2500HD long bed 4wd) was running fine, but the TM was slipping sideways some of the time.

I adjusted my mirrors so that I could see both of the TM tires. I did a pretty good job keep at least one TM tire in the groove made by the truck.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do next time to reduce the risk, other than not going? What I have thought about was:

1. Manually use the brake controller to essentially lock the TM tires, but that might cause it to slide even worse.

2. Use some serious M+S tires on the TM, such as Wrangler as just one example. Not sure if I could find any that would fit.

3. Install snow chains on the TM tires.

fwiw, my wife was behind me driving the Chevy 1500HD towing an ATV trailer with 1500 pounds of ATVs loaded. She had less trouble than I did, probably because her trailer weight was only half of what I was towing.

It was a great weekend. It snowed Thursday night, but the 2 to 4 inches of powder melted by 9 AM.

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by PopBeavers

For Memorial day weekend we went boon docking in the Sierras. Going up highway 108 we turned left 2 miles before chains were required. The road down to the river was paved, but very twisty. About 5 miles, no problem.

Then we had 3.7 miles of dirt road, but because of the weather a lot of it was mud and muck, sometimes 6 to 8 inches deep. This is a single lane road with 4 or 5 turnouts along the way that are just big enough to pass a truck, but not a truck and trailer. If two vehicles towing trailers met head to head I'm not sure what would happen next.

It took a little over an hour to drive in, always in 4wd, sometimes in low range. Driving out the roads were dry so it only took 35 minutes in 4wd high range.

When the road was flat or uphill I had no problems towing my 2005 TM 2720. Though the truck tires are M+S, the are the factory tires and I will replace them as soon as the budget allows. Not the best for traction, but almost adequate.

The problem was the downhill sections, especially when the road was off camber, leaning towards the downhill cliff. The truck (GMC 2500HD long bed 4wd) was running fine, but the TM was slipping sideways some of the time.

I adjusted my mirrors so that I could see both of the TM tires. I did a pretty good job keep at least one TM tire in the groove made by the truck.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do next time to reduce the risk, other than not going? What I have thought about was:

1. Manually use the brake controller to essentially lock the TM tires, but that might cause it to slide even worse.

2. Use some serious M+S tires on the TM, such as Wrangler as just one example. Not sure if I could find any that would fit.

3. Install snow chains on the TM tires.

fwiw, my wife was behind me driving the Chevy 1500HD towing an ATV trailer with 1500 pounds of ATVs loaded. She had less trouble than I did, probably because her trailer weight was only half of what I was towing.

It was a great weekend. It snowed Thursday night, but the 2 to 4 inches of powder melted by 9 AM.

I doubt that you would have clearance for larger tires or chains unless you went with a 4" lift (which is very doable).

For slow driving and short distances, I would think that lowering the air pressure might be acceptable (check with wmtire). That would increase traction. Using the brakes will actually reduce traction.

PopBeavers,

I doubt lowering the air pressure would help much in mud but it sure does in sand.I think your best bet would be to find some good ALL TERRAIN TIRES or even MUD TERRAIN TIRES rated for trailers.You probably won't find much to choose from in the 14" range but might with the 15".

I have had GREAT luck with the Goodyear Wrangler TD's on my Tundra.They provide great off road traction, are inexpensive,quiet @ freeway speeds and last a long time for the price.Who knows maybe Goodyear has something like this in an ST trailer tire.

Good Luck!

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by TrailGuy77

PopBeavers,

I doubt lowering the air pressure would help much in mud but it sure does in sand.I think your best bet would be to find some good ALL TERRAIN TIRES or even MUD TERRAIN TIRES rated for trailers.You probably won't find much to choose from in the 14" range but might with the 15".

I have had GREAT luck with the Goodyear Wrangler TD's on my Tundra.They provide great off road traction, are inexpensive,quiet @ freeway speeds and last a long time for the price.Who knows maybe Goodyear has something like this in an ST trailer tire.

Good Luck!

That would be true if we were talking about drive tires but on trailer tires, lower air pressure means more rubber on the surface. Sorta like the "Snowshoe" theory....

[Mr. Adventure]

Lower air pressure will help a soft surface support the load in sand, snow, or mud. I don't know how much it helps with traction, but it will sure provide better control and help you not get stuck. This is an unusual requirement, where you're looking for traction in non-drive wheels. Once they lock up, you're plowing furrows. Chains might help, but they might also just tear into the rocks and road surface and beat the wheel wells up.

We have so much trouble enough finding good trailer tires that I bet the tire manufacturers haven't even thought about your requirement, let alone build a tire for it. My first thought is to look for a light truck tire with good tread in the right load range. What you really need, of course, would be something more like a tractor tire, but on a TM scale. How about the tires they put on Bobcats? My dad used to own a Bobcat that had 3 Bobcat tires and a light truck tire, all mounted on Bobcat wheels, so there's a precedent for you. Tractor or Bobcat tires won't be made for highway speeds, of course, so you'd have to swap them on when you get to the dirt. But it might be good enough to work as a spare in a pinch, if you were willing to drive awhile at slow speeds, so that you could carry one less tire.

This came up in Google:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270572242695

Looking forward to the next installment in your story!

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure

Lower air pressure will help a soft surface support the load in sand, snow, or mud. I don't know how much it helps with traction, but it will sure provide better control and help you not get stuck. This is an unusual requirement, where you're looking for traction in non-drive wheels. Once they lock up, you're plowing furrows. Chains might help, but they might also just tear into the rocks and road surface and beat the wheel wells up.

We have so much trouble enough finding good trailer tires that I bet the tire manufacturers haven't even thought about your requirement, let alone build a tire for it. My first thought is to look for a light truck tire with good tread in the right load range. What you really need, of course, would be something more like a tractor tire, but on a TM scale. How about the tires they put on Bobcats? My dad used to own a Bobcat that had 3 Bobcat tires and a light truck tire, all mounted on Bobcat wheels, so there's a precedent for you. Tractor or Bobcat tires won't be made for highway speeds, of course, so you'd have to swap them on when you get to the dirt. But it might be good enough to work as a spare in a pinch, if you were willing to drive awhile at slow speeds, so that you could carry one less tire.

This came up in Google:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270572242695

Looking forward to the next installment in your story!

Make that a 6" lift kit........

Yeah, lowering the air pressure on trailer tires might add some floatation,thus increasing stability but it also makes the tire more susceptable to being punctured by a foreign object beneath the surface due to the fact the tire is softer and has a wider footprint.This would be less likely to happen with a tougher off road tire in an all terrain or mud terrain configuration.

Like Mr. Adventure,I have heard of some installing LT truck tires with a heavier load range on their trailer without any problems.It would definately give you a larger selection to choose from.Special circumstances require special needs!

[Wavery]

I'm agreeing..........I'd love to see a TM with a 6" lift and big truck mud tires.....That would be way cool....

I have the factory lift kit, so adding a taller one is probably not an option.

I can not go to taller wheels/tires because as it is now I only have 1/4 inch of clearance on top when going in/out of the garage.

As I thought about it more, my snow chains idea probably is useless because chains are intended to improve forward traction. I want to improve sideways traction, meaning I don't want it to slide sideways. Chains may help ever so slightly. I would have to check the clearance.

I believe that lower tire pressure would help in the mud, but when I got to the dry rocky surface, where some of the granite was sticking 2 inches out of the dirt, then, as noted, low tire pressure may be a problem. On the other hand, my speed was less than 5 mph.

The next time a 4wd versus 2wd debate surfaces, remember this story. Anyone without 4wd can't go where I can go. However, they probably don't want to go where I go. We had 3 motorcycles and 2 ATVs. We like to camp where we can ride them in and out without having to trailer them to the trails from camp.

How may people have a spouse that would drive the second truck towing the second trailer under these conditions?

My son (26) drove his Subaru in. My daughter (29) chose not to drive her Subaru in. But our son has some experience driving in these conditions, because he had a Chevy S10 4wd when he was a college student. He new that when approaching an off camber turn, going uphill, to stay high and don't stop, just keep all 4 wheels turning.

There were some triple axle fivers that drove in after us, at 1 AM, but they have been there before and knew the road well. This was our first time to the Crandall Staging area, just a bit north east of Long Barn, CA.

Gotta love the new Barker Tote-Along (Blue Tote) I bought for this trip. We arrived Thursday and left Monday. My wife, son, daughter and I have backpacked many times, so we can get by without using a toilet if we have to. But daughter-in-law has never camped outside of a campground that had flush toilets and hot showers. With three women, they were happy that I had it along. The Thetford was just not quite big enough. As Maxwell Smart would have said "Missed it by that much". About 3 gallons too much.

If anyone is interested, I'll start another thread about how much my motorcycle riding skills improved in a single weekend on this trip.

We had a great time. The snow Thursday night through Friday morning was beautiful. Just glad I did not have to drive through that. 2 to 4 inches of powder does an excellent job of hiding potholes and small rocks in the road. Sometimes it hides the entire road.

I am in charge of the West Coast TM Rally Fall 2011. The theme is dry camping. I'm looking for destinations. This one meets the criteria, but I think attendence would be rather low.

I have driven my truck many times in these type of conditions but have yet to tow my TM in them.Don't know if I would want to with the stock Goodyear ST All Season tires.They don't look like they would perform and/or hold up well in demanding off road conditions.

Some of the LT All Terrain/ Mud Terrain tires have tread that extends down the side wall of the tire which might help improve stability/decrease squirliness in mud.If installing these tires is not an option then hopefully your chains will fit.