Dim Front Half Ceiling Lights and No Speakers

[Dchisenh]

Good morning y'all!

I have a 2004 3326 that's new to me and I've got it setup in my backyard hooked into the house's electrical (20 amp circuit) and water (city water, clean and pressurized) while I get acquainted with all the systems and how it works. These things are marvels of engineering and I'm enjoying myself immensely, but I did run into a bit of a snag the other day.

Previously, all the interior ceiling lights worked (rear and front half 12v lights) and the speakers in the front cabinet worked as well (aftermarket Pioneers, from what I can tell). The other day I noticed that the 30 amp blade fuse installed between the two 6v batteries in the rear compartment had corroded/melted, so I replaced the connector with a new marine style 10 gauge fuse holder and new 30 amp fuse. Around the same time I noticed that the front half of the lights for the ceiling wouldn't really light up anymore...only a slight, delayed glow and only if you turned on one light at a time...turn on two, nothing happens. Also, the speakers appear to be dead. It looks like the speakers are wired into the light's electrical supply, so I think that's why the two are out. The AC works, the fan vent on the roof works, the rear half ceiling lights work, the radio face works, the antenna works, everything else in the unit works...except the front half of the ceiling lights. I've checked the 15 amp blade fuse in the converter panel box and it isn't lit up (converter has been upgraded to a PDI unit), but I replaced it anyway...still did nothing. The tank/battery status display lists the batteries as "charged" when I test it, so that shouldn't be a problem. I'm guessing there's something causing less than 12v to flow into those units, so little in fact that it won't even cause two bulbs to glow nor power the speakers at all...but I'm at a loss as to where the short/problem could be occurring.

I love this Trailmanor to death and am enjoying every second of figuring it out, but this has me stumped. I've been reading over the forums and searching through tons of old posts that note electrical problems like that, but I can't seem to find one that has this exact problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated by all folks far more familiar with the intricacies of TM wiring than I! Thanks in advance everyone and have a great 4th of July!

-Dan

[fourteener]

Dan,
First, the speakers should be self powered from the stereo (head unit) itself. I would start by checking 3 things. 1) Check that your stereo is not faded completely to the rear channel (as these speakers are usually connected to the front channel). 2) Pull the bottom vent (outside on your fridge) in the lower right hand side there is a bundle of wires and there is usually some male/female wire connectors holding the speakers together, make sure they are connected and not corroded. 3) Pull off speakers (easier than reaching in cabinet) and make sure connections are tight on the back of the speakers. I would do these in this order, as I have listed them in easiest to hardest.

As for the lights, I would get a volt meter and start checking for where your loss is. Sounds like it may be a bad ground?? I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to eletrical problems, so be patient, as I'm sure one of the experts (don't fail me now Forum Team) will be sure to chime in.

I would recheck all the connections you made when changing the fuse holder and make sure they are solid. A short jumper for a couple of seconds AROUND the new connection would be ok, just tap the wire to see if the condition changes. I suggest this as it appears to be when the issue started.

One other thing just popped into my head, do you have the bathroom walls up? There is a switch there that may have an issue and is not making well, BUT has nothing to do with radio speakers.

I suspect you may possibly have disturbed a ground connection to the upper shell, a jumper from the frame ground to something on the upper front shell that is ground will tell that story real fast. The lights will work. But seldom do they use electrical wiring for speakers, but I may be wrong.

Fuse ok! ground OK! UNPLUG from house. Now its time to take a peek from the outside behind the fridge, just remove the vent outside. You will find a lot of wire connections were made there, including radio speakers. There should be a large cable that goes out the bottom and then up the side of one of your roof struts. This cable has most of the wiring for the roof equipment so I suggest you check those connections first. They are wire nut connections so you can check them without any tools. If you have someone inside looking at the lights you should be able to wiggle wires and possibly make a change in brightness, that would be the connector that needs fixed. By the way with power removed from house you will only be seeing 12 volts so no safety issue though sparks will startle you.


Good luck!
Dave

[Bill]

You have two six-volt batteries, with the fuse between them. That is an unusual hookup - do you know how it got there? Is there a second fuse coming off the + terminal of one of the batteries? Other than the fuse, is there any connection to anything from between the two batteries? Can you take a photo of the two batteries and their connection wires? Are your batteries connected exactly as shown in the 6-volt half of this diagram?

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...&pictureid=451

The fact that the 30 amp fuse blew, and the very rugged fuseholder melted, but none of the smaller fuses blew, suggests that there was a short, perhaps momentary, right at the batteries. With the fuse between the two batteries, a momentary connection between the positive posts of the two batteries would blow this fuse in spectacular style. Similarly, a momentary connection between the negative posts of the two batteries would do the same. Did someone try to put the batteries in parallel for a moment, rather than series?

I'm not sure how this would result in a very low voltage on only some of the circuits, as you descirbe. It would depend on the details of the momentary wrong connection. But I tend to agree with other posts that it might have mucked up a ground connection somewhere.

You need to start probing around with a voltmeter. For instance, open up one of the "bad" light fixtures in the front shell. Clip the negative probe of the voltmeter on a known good ground such as the sheet metal of the ceiling skin. Now turn on the light and put the positive (red) probe on one side of the switch, then the other side of the switch, then the center connection to the bulb, and then the shell of the bulb. The first three should all show close to 12 volts. The shell of the bulb should show zero.

By the way, unless something has changed, the front roof and the rear roof are on separate circuits with separate fuses, each 15-amp. So the fact that the rear roof works but the front roof is funny isn't really definitive.

As for the radio, it is on yet a different circuit from the roof circuits. When the TM leaves the factory, the power wires for the radio are left lying on top of the refrig (capped off, of course). The wires are colored, probably white and black or white and blue, though I can't be sure. The speaker wires are also left lying on the top of the refrig, and their insulation is clear. As also stated above, the speakers should never be tied into any of the power wiring, anywhere, any time. If the speakers were connected to the power wiring, this would possibly/probably destroy them more or less instantly.

Interesting set of symptoms. Let us know more as you find more.

Bill

[Dchisenh]

Thank you both!

It looks like I've got some new places to check when I get home from work this afternoon.

I'm not sure how to check to see if the speakers have faded to the rear...I've been reading the little instruction booklet and it's far more complicated than the stupid-easy stereo in my truck.

Perhaps my assumption that the speakers are wired to the lights somehow is wrong, it just looks like the wires are all interrelated when I peek behind the cabinet door up there. I had no idea the wiring and connections for that is behind the fridge, but they have to be somewhere, so that's as good as any! At least it's easy to check. Unfortunately, I don't have a volt meter (I normally borrow one from my boss here at work, but he's on vacation in Alaska right now), so I can't check the lights.

Thanks for the ideas!

-Dan

[Dchisenh]

Thanks Bill, I just saw you posted as I was replying to the others.

Well, the TM is new to me and I'm only just getting used to it, but from what I've seen, when I looked in the rear compartment there was the fuse holder tied into the red cable which was situated between the two batteries (I'll have to double-check the wiring according to the diagram you posted) and it was toast. What I do remember is that the batteries are two Trojan 105's 6v, if I'm not mistaken and the terminals don't look corroded or anything, they still have those little felt things on them and they look clean. I'll take a picture of the setup when I get home this afternoon.

Well, it does seem like the general consensus is that the speakers and lights aren't connected and that's just a coincidence they're both acting up. My background is in molecular biology, so I'm not really electrically-inclined, feel free to suspect any of my assumptions!

Also, it sounds like I need to just go ahead and buy a volt meter to get to the bottom of this. Are there any features I should look for in one or will any garden-variety meter from Home Depot do?

-Dan

[fourteener]

Dan,

I'm a bit on the cheap side, but what I would do is check the Harbor Freight Add (if you have one in your area) and get one of their $1.99 volt meters, and just leave it in your TM. I like having tools that work, but don't cost a first born in my camper. This way if I happen to lend it to a fellow camper, I'm not at a measurable loss if it doesn't come back. I think you will find that you will use it more than you think.

[Dchisenh]

Well, it being the day before the 4th, I ducked out of the lab early today and came home to check on those items y'all had mentioned earlier before I headed up to Home Depot for a voltmeter and anything else I might need.

I should start by saying before I left it last evening, I turned off all the lights, AC, TV, water heater (it was on propane to test it anyway), and left the fridge on AC power, shut and locked the door and deadbolt and used the little holder tab for the upper half of the door. It was still plugged in to shore power and still had garden hose water turned on.

Before I even unlocked it this afternoon, I walked around to look for things that might be causing a short or grounding issue. I opened up the top and bottom access panels behind the fridge and checked that those connections looked good and felt tight (they did) and then took a peek at the large wiring around the torsion bar/roof support. It looked like some of the unbundled wires at the bottom were touching the arm slightly, so I moved them out of the way, just to be sure. Their individual wire sheathing was intact and looked alright, but I figured the less things they touched, the better.

Next, I opened up the camper and the first thing I did was test one of the front half ceiling lights and lo and behold, it worked! Just as bright as normal! I tried the rest and they were good too. I figured I'd see if I could go 2 for 2 and tested the radio. The speakers still weren't working, but I was able to see if they were faded to the rear (they weren't) and at that point, figured I'd remove them to see how they're connected. Y'all were 100% right, they're attached by normal speaker wire and all of the electrical wire I was seeing behind it was just where it happened to be for the other lighting. The connections on the speakers were tight, so next I used a little 'el cheapo' continuity tester (the kind that just beeps when you've got some juice, no volt readings or anything) and one speaker beeped slightly and the other didn't. So, I think somewhere the speaker connection is shot.

Now, I figured I'd double-check the battery just for good measure and Bill was right, the fuse is on the red wire leading away from one of the battery terminals and NOT between the two. Everything else looks like the diagram Bill attached, except mine also has another wire leading from that same terminal as the lead with the fuse that is labeled "PowerJack +", so I'm assuming that's for the electric jack up front.

So, I'm thinking most likely, there was a grounding issue when those wires from the TM going up touched the arm. Alternatively, I did notice after the AC was running for a bit, water was dripping down that area as well and it reminded me, I did rain yesterday too..I may not know much about electricity, but I do know it doesn't play well with water! After giving it time to dry out, perhaps that may have been the solution. Either way, we'll get more rain in the next few days I'm sure, so I'll be able to test that theory and I'll also be thinking of a better way to keep those wires off of the metal arm...perhaps electrical tape bundling them together and then using a zip tie to attach them to another cable?

Thanks Fourteener, Dave, and Bill! I'm sure I'll have more questions and the next time I head up to Home Depot, I'll grab a cheap volt meter with some numbers so I'll be able to do a bit more trouble-shooting on my own and have more info when I post in the future. Y'all are awesome and Happy 4th of July!

-Dan

Countrygirl - unless I misread your post, I believe you are describing the safety switch that shuts off power to the rear of the trailer, not the front.

[Dchisenh]

Hi MisterP and Countrygirl, I didn't get to see her reply before she deleted it, but I appreciate the thought!

I taped the wires towards the bottom of the support arm with some electrical tape to better insulate them and reduce the chance for contact with the metal bar right before it started raining buckets this afternoon and figured this would a great time to test if the rain triggers the short. I sat in the TM until the storm passed, using the time to check for leaks and dial in the antenna for local channels. The lights were fine the whole time (plus, no leaks!), so I assume the issue was with the wires and the contact.

Thanks for all the help!

-Dan