Testing for charger voltage on American Enterprises Power Charger

[Powderhound-TMO]

I want to test the charger on an AE power charger (probably 2004) to see if it is working and charging my 12v AGM battery. Where are the contact points that will provide me with that voltage? It would appear that it is providing 12v to the light circuit etc but I suspect the charger is not working from my investigations so far.

Cheers
Rob

 

[Bill]

I'm not sure what test points you are looking for other than the battery terminals. What is it doing (or not doing) that makes you think it is not charging? Is the battery dying after a while? Does it still power the loads even when you disconnect the charger (or equivalently, AC power)? If so, for how long? Have you looked on-line for a troubleshooting guide for your charger?

You can check the battery's state of charge by disconnecting the battery from everything (loads and charger), waiting maybe half an hour, then measuring the terminal voltage. Go on-line and find a State-of-Charge versus voltage table for AGM batteries and see what it tells you.

Presence or absence of charging, and rate of charge, can also be determined by measuring charge current rather than voltage. If current is going into the battery, it is charging. More current => faster charge. However, it requires a pretty hefty DC ammeter to measure it. A clamp-on meter is ideal, and easy to use.

Help me understand what you are trying to do.

Bill

 

[Kidkraz]

This isn't related to your issue, but New Zealand. Welcome to the TM forum.

 

[Powderhound-TMO]

Hi Bill
Its a little complicated because it has been converted to 240AC. This has been done by inserting a new NZ RCD between the mains power input cable and a 240/115 AC transformer which is then wired to the AE panel and charger/ converter. . The new 240AC plugs (originally 120V) now come off the new circuit breaker so any AC power at the AE panel is 115/120V. It would appear that the rest of the wiring at the AE panel seems to follow the diagram as provided by TM. In addition a 90w solar panel with Solara regulator was fitted professionally after we purchased it and is wired from the panel to regulator to the battery. The solar panel is producing 19+V on a sunny day. Any use of anything seems to run the battery down despite the fact that solar panel is clearly working during daytime and it would appear the charger / converter comes to life as evidenced by the fans starting to operate when there has been some demand on the system. The other anomaly is that thev 12v power circuits only work when the battery is hooked up with the 240V mains plugged in and if it is flat they do not work either with the 240V plugged in. With the battery disconnected however there is no voltage at the terminals on the wires between the battery and the charger / converter which would suggest it is not charging. But i was trying to locate the terminals on the charger /converter where i could test this. There is no combiner to regulate between the two charging systems which maybe there should be? I have checked for loose connections or any other potential short situation including the brake breakaway.

Hopefully that makes it a little clearer.

Cheers
Rob

 

[Powderhound-TMO]

Thanks.

 

[Bill]

Rob -

The AC voltage conversion appears to be straightforward. If I understand, it brings in 240 VAC, and uses a transformer to drop it to 120 VAC which is used in the TM. The one difference is that your power is 50 HZ, where ours is 60 Hz. Some devices are sensitive to this - I'm thinking maybe the air conditioner - but the converter is not one of them. If your camper has been operating for 20 years without problems, I don't think this is part of your current issue.

The conversion includes an RCD (we call this device a GFI or GFCI) and presumably there is a fuse or circuit breaker in the 240 VAC line. Also, your automotive systems use 12VDC, same as ours, so no complications there. All good do far? If so, from the Forum point of view, this is a familiar and conventional Trail Manor. A good place to start.

To summarize your first observation, you have a solar panel which is set up correctly and appears to be working. It seems to put at least a partial charge on the battery, and the battery will then run a small load (lights?) for a short while, but the charge depletes quickly. If this describes what happens when AC power is NOT plugged in, it points at a failing battery. If it happens when the AC power IS plugged in, it points at a possible charger problem. In addition, either answer tells us that 30-amp battery main fuse, a frequent source of trouble, is probably OK.

So let's start there, and proceed further when we have those answers.

Bill

 

[Bill]

Another thought

it would appear the charger / converter comes to life as evidenced by the fans starting to operate when there has been some demand on the system. The other anomaly is that the 12v power circuits only work when the battery is hooked up with the 240V mains plugged in and if it is flat they do not work either with the 240V plugged in. With the battery disconnected however there is no voltage at the terminals on the wires between the battery and the charger / converter which would suggest it is not charging.

The charger seems to properly sense a low battery condition, as evidenced by the fact that it turns on when battery voltage is low. But I'm not sure what happens if the battery is disconnected, so there is no voltage for it to sense. In more recent systems, the charger continues to produce its nominal 12 VDC, well-regulated, and the 12-volt loads in the camper continue to function normally from this source. But earlier chargers were not so well-regulated, using the battery itself to filter and stabilize the output voltage. If there is no battery present, older chargers produced a higher voltage. In this event, the charger's own internal over-voltage protection might switch the charger off. This would be considered proper given the charger design, but annoying.

And they worked the same way with over-current. The charger would not attempt to charge a severely low battery since a very high over-current would result. A very high current could damage either the charger or the battery, so the charger would shut itself down.

As a quick question, do you have a way to disconnect the TM AGM battery, and temporarily swap in a known-good car battery? Jumper cables would be fine, and AGM or conventional will be OK for a quick test. Another (easier) way to do this test is to plug your TM into your tow vehicle, start the tow vehicle engine, and see if the TM's inside lights work.

The TM's AGM battery may have a manufacturing or sales date on it, either stamped into it, or on a paper tag. Do you find one?

Bill

 

[Powderhound-TMO]

Rob -

The AC voltage conversion appears to be straightforward. If I understand, it brings in 240 VAC, and uses a transformer to drop it to 120 VAC. The one difference is that your power is 50 HZ, where ours is 60 Hz. Some devices are sensitive to this - I'm thinking of the air conditioner - but the converter is not one of them. If your camper has been operating for 20 years without problems, I don't think this is part of your current issue.

The conversion includes an RCD (we call this device a GFI or GFCI) and presumably there is a fuse or circuit breaker in the 240 VAC line. Also, your automotive systems use 12VDC, same as ours, so no complications there. All good do far? If so, from the Forum point of view, this is a familiar and conventional Trail Manor. A good place to start.

To summarize your first observation, you have a solar panel which is set up correctly and appears to be working. It seems to put at least a partial charge on the battery, and the battery will then run a small load (lights?) for a short while, but the charge depletes quickly. If this describes what happens when AC power is NOT plugged in, it points at a failing battery. If it happens when the AC power IS plugged in, it points at a possible charger problem. In addition, either answer tells us that 30-amp battery main fuse, a frequent source of trouble, is probably OK.

So let's start there, and proceed further when we have those answers.

Hi Bill


Yes that summarises the AC situation.

The RCD is actually a MCB/RCD so there is a circuit breaker in the incoming mains power line.

The solar panel is definitely producing some charge and increasing the voltage on the battery. The 100AH battery is brand new a week ago. The van has not been in use for over a year and has been sitting without a battery installed until now. I charged the new battery before installing it with a 3 stage charger as recommended. I did not record the voltage pre or after charging but it went through the 3 stages as expected. Of course it may still be faulty despite it being new but it has a 24 month warranty.

Prior to purchasing the new battery I did use an older automotive battery that I ran through a rejuvenation cycle and charged up to check my systems when I brought the TM back home. Primarily so I could check the 12V systems as they only work with a battery conected into the circuit, which as noted is not the way TM electrics are meant to work, but it is the way this TM has been since purchase. Overnight this battery went flat despite the AC being plugged in and only a light load placed on it.

I have not run the system without AC plugged in so far for any extended period, only when I was running some of my tests. After installing it on the second night it dropped to 11.7V after using it overnight. Thats when I became concerned about the way things were working. I then disconnected it and recharged it with the 3 stage charger which bought it up to 14.1V immediately after the charge cycle. Since then (over the last 3 days) with basically only lights and the occasional toilet use it has fluctuated between 12.96 -11.8V, but it seems to be in a slow decline pattern to the point now where I intend to give it another 3 stage charge with the battery sitting at 12.17V this morning.

I have checked all the fuses including the 30A battery fuses and they all appear to be 100%.

I will run the battery without AC tonight after I charge it and see what happens in that circumstance.

 

[Powderhound-TMO]

The charger seems to properly sense a low battery condition, as evidenced by the fact that it turns on when battery voltage is low. But I'm not sure what happens if the battery is disconnected, so there is no voltage for it to sense. In more recent systems, the charger continues to produce its nominal 12 VDC, well-regulated, and the 12-volt loads in the camper continue to function normally from this source. But earlier chargers were not so well-regulated, using the battery itself to stabilize the output voltage. If there is no battery present, older chargers produced a higher voltage. In this event, the charger's own internal over-voltage protection might switch the charger off. This would be considered proper, given the charger design, but annoying.

And they worked the same way with over-current. The charger would not attempt to charge a severely low battery since a very high over-current would result. A very high current could damage either the charger or the battery, so the charger would shut itself down.

As a quick question, do you have a way to disconnect the TM AGM battery, and temporarily swap in a known-good car battery? Jumper cables would be fine, and AGM or conventional will be OK for a quick test. Another (easier) way to do this test is to plug your TM into your tow vehicle, start the tow vehicle engine, and see if the TM's inside lights work.

The TM's AGM battery may have a manufacturing or sales date on it, either stamped into it, or on a paper tag. Do you find one?

Hi Bill

When the battery is disconnected the charger does not seem to turn on and there is no current at the leads to the battery. I do not have a clamping multimeter so am just measuring current in line.

I could do the tow vehicle test for sure. Will follow that through too.

I have not seen a manufacturing date on the battery or the box it came in but it is new and purchased from a popular automotive chain who have a high turnover so I have assumed it is reasonably fresh even though it is from a Vietnamese manufacturer.

Cheers
Rob

 

[Wavery]

Twizel, NZ.........

Small world. In the early 80's, I sailed around the South Island on my sailboat and spent 6-months in Milford Sound in 1986. I was hired as captain of one of the tour boats as the official captain went on a sabbatical leave.

One of my crew was from Twizel and I went to his home after I ended my service with the charter company in Milford Sound. We helped his parents move from Twizel to Christchurch. Twizel was just a small village then with very few jobs. You live in a very special place in this world.

 

[rickst29]

Hi Bill
Its a little complicated because it has been converted to 240AC. This has been done by inserting a new NZ RCD between the mains power input cable and a 240/115 AC transformer which is then wired to the AE panel and charger/ converter. . The new 240AC plugs (originally 120V) now come off the new circuit breaker so any AC power at the AE panel is 115/120V. It would appear that the rest of the wiring at the AE panel seems to follow the diagram as provided by TM. In addition a 90w solar panel with Solara regulator was fitted professionally after we purchased it and is wired from the panel to regulator to the battery. The solar panel is producing 19+V on a sunny day. Any use of anything seems to run the battery down despite the fact that solar panel is clearly working during daytime and it would appear the charger / converter comes to life as evidenced by the fans starting to operate when there has been some demand on the system. The other anomaly is that thev 12v power circuits only work when the battery is hooked up with the 240V mains plugged in and if it is flat they do not work either with the 240V plugged in. With the battery disconnected however there is no voltage at the terminals on the wires between the battery and the charger / converter which would suggest it is not charging. But i was trying to locate the terminals on the charger /converter where i could test this. There is no combiner to regulate between the two charging systems which maybe there should be? I have checked for loose connections or any other potential short situation including the brake breakaway.

Hopefully that makes it a little clearer.

Cheers
Rob

Thanks for that clarification.

Even when they were nearly new, the OEM "AE" power converters from years before 2006 ended to burn out batteries by pushing high DC charge voltage almost all the time, even after the "house" batteries were full and didn't want to take any more power. When abused this way, AGM and GEL batteries tend to be damaged more quickly than plate-type batteries, because many types of non-sealed "floating" battery cells can burn off a lot of damaging energy by energy by boiling the acid solution.

The WFCO units (from 2006 and later) had other issues, but not that one.

In your TM, your problematic AE Converter also has about 20 years age, with unkown wear and tear compouding its defective design. Your 230/50 --> 120/60 conversion might also have some issues regarding the quality of 120-VAC output on the "split phase" side (120V) which actually run power converter.

I recommend that you throw away the AE Converter, and instead purchase a replacement built to run directly from your grid connection - 230/50, maybe a Victron All-In-One (including solar charging as well). Much more costly, but really good.